New ACO rules - bad calls?

[ss_collins]

The ACO want to increase the LMP2 weight - why? everyone loves watching the little cars beating up on the big un's

GT rules look ropey too - why change GT2 - it seems to work just fine, as does GT3, but they want to meddle. (Forget GT1 - lame duck class),What are others opinions on the new rules and has the ACO lost the plot?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

The ACO want to increase the LMP2 weight - why? everyone loves watching the little cars beating up on the big un's

GT rules look ropey too - why change GT2 - it seems to work just fine, as does GT3, but they want to meddle. (Forget GT1 - lame duck class),What are others opinions on the new rules and has the ACO lost the plot?

I love the LMP1's and 2's competing for overall victory. To me most of the best racing in recent years has been when the big and little cars have been able to compete.

Much as I like GT1 it does appear to have had its day. To me the simple answer to to change the name of GT2 to GT1 and GT3 to GT2 and then keep the rest of the rules the same.

[ss_collins]

Exactly - If its a Zytek chasing a Peugeot or a Porsche bashing into an Audi, its really entertaining but they seem to want to stop that - a real shame.

What are GT3/GT2 lap time comparisons?

[The Badger]

Why ?

Because LMP2 was supposed to be for the privateer and was never supposed to be able to take on LMP1 .

I like the scrap too .

[gwyllion]

All this is very ironic.

LMP675 was designed to challenge LMP900. It did not work, as all manufacturers picked LMP900 (expect MG).

Now LMP2 is designed to be a lower class. Porsche and Acura jump on it and want to go for overall victory.

All this because of the diesel factor in LMP1?

[Spyderman]

It’s also a question of timing.
Porsche did not have prototype when the LMP 900 and LMP 675 rules were in place.
Also- the fact that the P1 rules are so pro-diesel (I know some don’t think so) served to chase incoming non diesel manufactures into P2.
The cost of producing a competitive non diesel P1 would be so high that companies like Porsche (that are making a business out of racing) would not be able to sell the cars to customers.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

The ACO want to increase the LMP2 weight - why? everyone loves watching the little cars beating up on the big un's

GT rules look ropey too - why change GT2 - it seems to work just fine, as does GT3, but they want to meddle. (Forget GT1 - lame duck class),What are others opinions on the new rules and has the ACO lost the plot?

Because Acura should be in P1 sometime in 2009, likely with a Coupe, Aston and Corvette are seriously eyeing Coupes, while Lola and Oreca have reported manufactuer interest in their Coupes.

That leaves Porsche, by 2009 the diesel/petrol equivalency should be sorted, so nothing to stop a move to P1, while continuing to sell P2 customer cars. It opens up a new P1 customer market (the current RS Spyder is P1+ money) and a genuine potential Le Mans winner against their greatest rivals, who will be in P1.

It's really just a matter of looking 12-18 months down the line, even those in the heat of the P2 battle are eying P1, leaving P2 for customers, it's a transitional phase that suits everyone ATM.

Current P2's remind me of 2l Kit Cars in the WRC, Peugeot and Citroen used a rules loophole to produce 4wd WRC beaters should the conditions suit (sound familiar), they created havoc for 3 seasons before stepping upto full 4wd WRC cars.

As for GT1, sure, kill it off in 2009, it's finished.

I'm then unsure whether to scrap GT2, with only two serious manufacturers, make it the top class and up the sex the cars, or move straight to GT3.

[Pilgrimage]

What is GT3 exactly? This is not a glorified touring car class is it?

[ss_collins]

Porsche did not have prototype when the LMP 900 and LMP 675 rules were in place.

Didn't they?


GT3 is proper GT racing - Ford GT's, 911, DBRS9's, Corvettes Z06's, Lambos, Ferrari's. See www.fiagt3.com

[JAG]

GT2 pace without the cost (yet).

[Pilgrimage]

Sounds good - is the cost of running a Porsche 911 GT3 that much more than running a Lambo/ z06 etc then?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Didn't they?


GT3 is proper GT racing - Ford GT's, 911, DBRS9's, Corvettes Z06's, Lambos, Ferrari's. See www.fiagt3.com

Unfortunately this car never raced. Some say there was a deal made with Audi.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

The ACO want to increase the LMP2 weight - why? everyone loves watching the little cars beating up on the big un's

GT rules look ropey too - why change GT2 - it seems to work just fine, as does GT3, but they want to meddle. (Forget GT1 - lame duck class),What are others opinions on the new rules and has the ACO lost the plot?

No the proposed direction that the ACO is going with their rules is just fine IMO. They seem to be addressing the rules to reflect the 4 class set that they have in place at the moment. My largest concern and hope now is that they give P-1 petrol cars some leeway to catch the diesels. What I think I see and hear is some people who do not like the 4 class set and want just 1 class of proto's with varying rules to acheive the same end (been there done that) and think that GT racing is an afterthought. I also think that there will be a sloughing off of GT-1 with it being replaced by GT-2 and GT-3 moving up with the adjustments necessary to keep performance in a range that is suitable for all 4 classes running together. But all just in my opinion of course!

L.P.

[Bob Riebe]

As far as the ACO in Europe I have not an idea how removing the Audis competition from Porsche will go down, but in the IMSA the fact the Penske Porsche turned the races into races, and not boring parades, IF that point is removed the IMSA will lose what appeal and credibility it gained this year.

IF Chevy goes away with GT! they will lose a huge fan base.
P&M would like to try the P class, if Chevy does not it will not happen.

As I said before two years in racing is an eternity, and by 2010 there could be a unexpected pleasant surprise or the IMSA could be near death.

Bob

[AU N EGL]

DO some one forget to link to the new rules or are we speculating again?

[knighty]

this is a bit like when the FWD/2WD 2.0 normally aspirated rally cars started to beat the WRC cars on the tarmac rounds of the WRC series......the 4wD turbo WRC boys started to look at each other and say "this shouldnt be happening".......and not before long, the 2 litre class was scrapped and they invented "super 1600" to really distance the classes apart......and S1600's purpose was to act as feeder series to the WRC teams, and lets be honest, it worked a treat, as I'm sure Leob would testify......

the problem with the ACO is they are in love with the prospect of lots of manufacturers, just as alan gow was with the BTCC, and when Porsche and Acura said to the ACO, "hey Mr Pedrix / Mr Panoz / IMSA, were coming back, oh and by the way were going the LMP2 route.....errr, OK".......its the ACO,s own stupid fault, they should have been more firm with Porsche and Honda to start with......

and from what I can see, the LMP2 engine rules seem more expensive, light does not mean cheap, it means more expensive, as it takes longer to design, reason being I have been there done it on the engine side, and the reynard and lola designers told me its just the same for the chassis......anyway, the LMP2 motors are so highly strung, going LMP racing with 10,000 revs for a V8, or 550bhp from a 4 pot is plain stupid......I cans blame shorty for going back to LMP1 as the regs seem more logical and cost effective......just my 2 pence worth!

[JAG]

The only thing for certain is P1 Coupes and current open P2's by 2010.

Only the FIA have made proposals about GT's, and quite frankly they are meaningless unless the ACO adopts them, for the purposes of this discussion at least.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

As far as the ACO in Europe I have not an idea how removing the Audis competition from Porsche will go down, but in the IMSA the fact the Penske Porsche turned the races into races, and not boring parades, IF that point is removed the IMSA will lose what appeal and credibility it gained this year.

IF Chevy goes away with GT! they will lose a huge fan base.
P&M would like to try the P class, if Chevy does not it will not happen.

As I said before two years in racing is an eternity, and by 2010 there could be a unexpected pleasant surprise or the IMSA could be near death.

Bob

The competition won't be removed, 2008 will be a repeat of 2007 as only the Penske Porsche is down to 775kg, they will just have to work a little harder.

By 2009 Acura will be in P1, hopefully P&M also, while the regs should be Porsche (petrol) friendly.

Beef up P2 and make them less stressed and they'll be even more privateer friendly.

As for GM/Chevy fans deserting the series if they go P1, well I personally believe a spiritual succesor to the GT40 MKIV would go down a treat.

P&M could still build customer GT2/GT3 Corvetes.

P&M/Chevy need competition, not GT1 parades.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

The only thing for certain is P1 Coupes and current open P2's by 2010.

Only the FIA have made proposals about GT's, and quite frankly they are meaningless unless the ACO adopts them, for the purposes of this discussion at least.

Or the FIA addapts the ACO rules

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

DO some one forget to link to the new rules or are we speculating again?

The regulations changes will be released in November, but the ACO have already announced the planned 50kg addition to LMP2.

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by JAG

The only thing for certain is P1 Coupes and current open P2's by 2010.

Only the FIA have made proposals about GT's, and quite frankly they are meaningless unless the ACO adopts them, for the purposes of this discussion at least.

That's actually far from "certain" at the moment... and it would be for an initial season in 2010, and mandatory from 2011 on.

[ger80]

Originally Posted by JAG

The competition won't be removed, 2008 will be a repeat of 2007 as only the Penske Porsche is down to 775kg, they will just have to work a little harder.

Mr. Peter made this statement on Motors TV too. Is that confirmed by others?
Dyson runs higher weight due to the use of the endurance engine all season? So Penske will run higher weight at PLM too?
The Lolas are running a higher weight? They are developed based on the LMP675 and even if the new safety rules give some additional weight and if Lola changed the material in some areas to save some money, I dont understand why they couldnt reach the 775kg limit. E.g. the engines from AER and Judd lost some weight over the last years ....

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Or the FIA addapts the ACO rules

Like thats ever gonna happen??????????????????????????
ETA the two organisations have rarely seen eye to eye and both believe they have the best series. The FIA wanted Le Mans to be a round of the old WSPC and the ACO said no. This wont be any different. ACO wants to to it their way, and the FIA theirs. AS the saying goes "Never the twain shall meet!"

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by C9/89

The FIA wanted Le Mans to be a round of the old WSPC and the ACO said no.

What time period are you talking about now? 70s?

[Justin Moran]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

What time period are you talking about now? 70s?

No, it was the late eighties and early nineties but they havent really co-operated since. i.e. Le Mans is still a stand alone event even for the LMS and ALMS/ JLMS. Different homologation and technical regs for each series.