[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'm not so sure.... he's held his own against all of his teammates in general.
I think he would quite possibly kick on another gear in a truly front running car.

I agree he does get rattled but he is at least solid, at most, who knows?!

He's held his own - that's kind of my point, he's not blown any of them away.
Beaten by Perez, beaten by Ricciardo, 1-1 in seasons with Alonso (you could argue that Alonso was beaten by reliability rather than Ocon), beaten by Gasly (this time reliability goes against Ocon).

He's solid rather than exceptional - is that enough for a team with title winning ambitions? Also, as you mention, he gets rattled and gets involved in incidents more than a lot of others - would the pressure of being in a team with higher expectations lead to more mistakes?

[chillibowl]

If GR takes a huge huge step this season then it wont matter but if he doesnt, a GR/Ocon pairing would be far to mundane for a top flight squad imo.

top teams need superstars. divas even!

[Aysedasi]

Agreed.

I'm standing by my phone, just in case........

[PhilipR]

As a mercedes fan, I am a huge admirer of Lewis, but as I do not like ferrari he will be the enemy from 2025 haha

But no jokes, good on him for making the change. He always wanted to race for Ferrari and whatever made him make the move is definitely worth it for him. We got a good 12 years out of him and nothing lasts forever

What gets me is the response to the move and looking for reasons and why mercedes failed and I realise we no longer have big team transfers in f1 like we had in the past. Up to 10-15 years ago it was common to see big transfer moves for drivers between top teams: Piquet from Brabham to Williams/ Prost from Renault to Mclaren to Ferrari to Williams/ Senna from Mclaren to Williams/ Mansell from Williams to Ferrari and back to Williams/ Schumacher from benetton to Ferrari/ Alonso from Renault to Mclaren to Ferrari to back to Mclaren/ Raikonnen from Mclaren to Ferrari, Vettel from Red Bull to Ferrari etc

I realise that now it seems more common for drivers to stick with a team for a very long period and basically become franchise drivers. Was quite surprised at Leclerc and Norris signing long term deals when other opportunities might come up at any point(and it has with Lewis going to Ferrari)

Maybe it is because in the current restrictive formula the performance dynamic between teams is less diverse meaning a dominant car will be dominant for a longer period rather than in the past when all this could change from season to season?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Maybe it is because in the current restrictive formula the performance dynamic between teams is less diverse meaning a dominant car will be dominant for a longer period rather than in the past when all this could change from season to season?

I wouldn't be surprised if, as far as Hamilton is concerned, that it was just about the money. Yes, I'm sure the lack of performance from the Mercedes in the last couple of years has probably or possibly affected his decision, but I'm pretty sure that Ferrari have offered him a deal that he just couldn't refuse.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I wouldn't be surprised if, as far as Hamilton is concerned, that it was just about the money. Yes, I'm sure the lack of performance from the Mercedes in the last couple of years has probably or possibly affected his decision, but I'm pretty sure that Ferrari have offered him a deal that he just couldn't refuse.

I'd agree with that Mike but also include the added attraction of driving for Ferrari before he retires. (Plus, thinking of his retirement, the possibility of staying n the payroll as a Ferrari ambassador when he does stop racing).

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I wouldn't be surprised if, as far as Hamilton is concerned, that it was just about the money. Yes, I'm sure the lack of performance from the Mercedes in the last couple of years has probably or possibly affected his decision, but I'm pretty sure that Ferrari have offered him a deal that he just couldn't refuse.

I believe a major influence was the willingness of Ferrari to put, as a bonus part of his package, tens of millions of euros annually into his Mission 44 project plus a joint investment fund with the Exor company (the business owned / operated by the descendants of Agnelli) to invest in Lewis's charitable projects.

[S griffin]

Interestingly Hamilton’s Extreme E is pulling out of the championship, although apparently that’s to do with the series going to hydrogen rather than Lewis going to Ferrari

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Interestingly Hamilton’s Extreme E is pulling out of the championship, although apparently that’s to do with the series going to hydrogen rather than Lewis going to Ferrari

You'd have thought Lewis might like having a team in Extreme H (assume that the series name will have to change?) - he could brand himself as "Hydrogen Hammy" or something like that.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Tourer

You'd have thought Lewis might like having a team in Extreme H (assume that the series name will have to change?) - he could brand himself as "Hydrogen Hammy" or something like that.

With a name like that, it’s probably just as well he didn’t

[peebee2]

Interesting suggestion that Merc might really push to boat out financially and try and sign Verstappen once again.

Unlikely on the face of it, but with new regs, new engines and possible loss of Horner and/or Newey, that could possibly give him a contractual out, should he want to.

As discussed, Merc really need a top-liner to lead their team if they want to stay in the top division, and there really aren't too many obvious and clear candidates for that, if any.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Interesting suggestion that Merc might really push to boat out financially and try and sign Verstappen once again.

Unlikely on the face of it, but with new regs, new engines and possible loss of Horner and/or Newey, that could possibly give him a contractual out, should he want to.

As discussed, Merc really need a top-liner to lead their team if they want to stay in the top division, and there really aren't too many obvious and clear candidates for that, if any.

And don’t forget RB have a new Motor that could go either way

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

And don’t forget RB have a new Motor that could go either way

I agree with you, although I did already mention enegine above .

[Guthrie]

You can never say never but it looks highly likely to happen in the next few season at least.

[S griffin]

If Max does go to Merc, he will find he won’t be able to get away with his behaviour as much as he has done at RBR. Merc seem better at grounding drivers young and old

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

If Max does go to Merc, he will find he won’t be able to get away with his behaviour as much as he has done at RBR. Merc seem better at grounding drivers young and old

What behaviour is this that Merc wouldn’t like?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by peebee2

What behaviour is this that Merc wouldn’t like?

Let's think. His bratty behaviour when things don't go his way, the way he always blames other drivers to the point of getting confrontational. Also hopefully they would rein in some of his dirty driving tactics

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Let's think. His bratty behaviour when things don't go his way, the way he always blames other drivers to the point of getting confrontational. Also hopefully they would rein in some of his dirty driving tactics

His dirty driving tactics? He's accepted as one of the cleanest drivers in F1. It's one of his strengths.

Always blaming others? You''d do better to look at the likes of Russell, Ocon, Gasly, Tsunoda, Norris etc. etc. etc.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by peebee2

His dirty driving tactics? He's accepted as one of the cleanest drivers in F1. It's one of his strengths.

Max?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by peebee2

His dirty driving tactics? He's accepted as one of the cleanest drivers in F1. It's one of his strengths.

Always blaming others? You''d do better to look at the likes of Russell, Ocon, Gasly, Tsunoda, Norris etc. etc. etc.

Cleanest? Ask other drivers about them being victim of his give way or crash tactics. And Vegas last year shows he still hasn’t completely shaken it off. So it’s nonsense to say he’s accepted as one of the cleanest

And you mention Russell and Ocon, well ask them what happened when they have collided with Max in the past, i.e. Baku last year and Brazil 2018. They weren’t the ones being confrontational afterwards, Max was. Shows he hasn’t completely matured yet.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by peebee2

His dirty driving tactics? He's accepted as one of the cleanest drivers in F1. It's one of his strengths.

Always blaming others? You''d do better to look at the likes of Russell, Ocon, Gasly, Tsunoda, Norris etc. etc. etc.

Max was clean this season because there was no one else within a country mile of him most of the time. The last time he was properly and regularly challenged resulted in some of the most dirty driving we have seen in recent years from him and Hamilton.

Or are you on a wind up and I have just given you the bite that you wanted?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Max was clean this season because there was no one else within a country mile of him most of the time. The last time he was properly and regularly challenged resulted in some of the most dirty driving we have seen in recent years from him and Hamilton.

Or are you on a wind up and I have just given you the bite that you wanted?

Singapore was a clear example in 2023 of the kind of behaviour S Griffin is referring to I think.

[peebee2]

I never said he was perfect, none of them are. But he's certainly not noted for dirty driving in general.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I never said he was perfect, none of them are. But he's certainly not noted for dirty driving in general.

LOL.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I never said he was perfect, none of them are. But he's certainly not noted for dirty driving in general.

, ad infinitum!