Going green

[Manny]

How many other marshals are struggling to get their first 10 sig's. Ive done 2 training sessions and in second year on the bank, work hard but for some examining observers this is not enough. At on event we had a fire, two crash's and a 50 yard oil spill at our point alone, I was involved with all but told that we had not done enough to warrant a signature! Anybody else wondering if to carry on?

[thepits!]

Originally Posted by Manny

How many other marshals are struggling to get their first 10 sig's. Ive done 2 training sessions and in second year on the bank, work hard but for some examining observers this is not enough. At on event we had a fire, two crash's and a 50 yard oil spill at our point alone, I was involved with all but told that we had not done enough to warrant a signature! Anybody else wondering if to carry on?

I assume by "Going Green" you mean grading from Trainee to Course?

We try to encourage signatures at this level, so I am disappointed if after apparently working so hard at an incident the Ex Obs didn't sign your upgrade card!

Are you spreading yourself around the circuits? That may help.


PM / email me if you think that would help.

Simon Bill - BMMC National Grading Officer

[rescue dude]

One tip is you can get i believe 4 signatures on a circuit grading card from hillclimbs and sprints.

As your from Shropshire your not too far from Loton park, which has a round of the British hillclimb Championahip this weekend. Shelsley Walsh is not too far either.

[KayBee]

Originally Posted by rescue dude

One tip is you can get i believe 4 signatures on a circuit grading card from hillclimbs and sprints.

Maybe for Rescue but not for Circuit marshals.

At my last but one meeting the ExObs made a point of asking marshals who were upgrading to ensure that they had the correct upgrading card because some people were handing their cards in with signatures for sprints and hillclimbs on their Circuit cards.

You also need two cards if you're grading for Course and Specialist.

[rescue dude]

I've never had a problem signing circuit cards and even checked this out with the MSA who said it was fine.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Manny

How many other marshals are struggling to get their first 10 sig's. Ive done 2 training sessions and in second year on the bank, work hard but for some examining observers this is not enough.

Don't panic! I understand your frustration - most people, at some time in their marshalling career experience it. It manifests itself in many ways - you have a busy day, but no 'X' on post, you are on a 'busy' post & nothing happens, worst of all the post you're on has a lot of incidents but you personally aren't involved in any of them. Yes, it can be depressing at times, but everybody gets there in the end.

You don't say how many meetings you've done & how many signatures you've got -those are the important criteria. I have no evidence whatsoever to back this up, but I'd suggest that, depending on the circuits & the meetings you do, one signature every three meetings is not bad going. You'll also find that, as your card fills up, signatures are more hard to come by - what'll get you your first signature won't get you your tenth!

At on event we had a fire, two crash's and a 50 yard oil spill at our point alone, I was involved with all but told that we had not done enough to warrant a signature!

You say you were 'involved'; by that, do you mean that you & your partner were first to some of the incidents, or were you just involved in clearing up afterwards? There's a big difference!

Anybody else wondering if to carry on?

It's important to remember that NO stigma is attached to your trainee grade. It's an indication of your lack of experience, NOT any lack of ability. Don't be in a rush to get your green badge - just enjoy your marshalling.....the signatures will come. It will be all the more satisfying knowing that you've worked hard to get your upgrade. Far better to have people saying to your face 'why haven't you got your green badge' than saying behind your back 'how on earth did he get his green badge?'

Now, of course, there are certain actions you can take to ensure that you get your share of incidents:

Eat lots of pork pies.

Say one of the following:

'We're having a quiet day.'
'Nothing ever happens here.'
'This is boring.'
'Looks like we'll get an early finish.'

Just remember why we marshal; I can't speak for anybody else, but I do it for one reason, & one reason only: it's FUN. Yes, in my opinion grading is important as a measure of a marshal's experience &, more important, ability, but nobody should ever let frustration with an apparent lack of progress with an upgrade get in the way of their enjoyment. Stick at it - it's a rewarding hobby!

[tidykiwi]

Im now in my second season of marshalling, have attended the training days and while I have not done loads of meetings I should by now have had enough signatures to warrant upgrading to course.

But...

I have never had a signature! (other than those from training events). The majority of the time I don't get put on post with an Ex-Observer and on the odd occasion where I have, I never seem to have my card with me or forget to present it.

To tell you the truth though, Im not all that bothered about upgrading. Im perfectly happy mucking in and getting involved as a trainee/course marshal. Can't say Id really enjoy standing in one place all day waving flags or communicating with race control. At the end of the day I wanted to be involved in motorsport and close to the action, and I am, so thats good enough for me.

[AndyMil]

Don't give up!!

I will be out nearly every weekend from May till September, Just going for the sigs? Definately not, it has taken me two years to get my 10 sigs, but I have probably done 40-50 meetings in that time, missed my 2nd training day this year so will have to wait till next Jan for my upgrade to green, but it doesn't bother me or the people that know me, just because it will say course on my overalls next year doesn't mean I will do the job any better or worse. I do the best that my abilities and knowledge allow, EVERY TIME!

I also believe that you are allowed one speed sig for a circuit upgrade

STICK WITH IT!!

[Robin_D]

I keep forgetting my grading card and am still classified a trainee after starting in 2000. I attend 20 - 25 events a year. I'm not too bothered, I am still trusted.

[johndpeat]

If you have had a 'busy' day on the bank have you considered taking your card up to race control at the end to see if the chief marshal or Observer would be able to give you a sig.

[numbersix]

The system itself needs upgrading in my opinion. I know some trainees are happy to go with the flow, but I believe many others get very frustrated at this daft 'lottery' of signatures.

Everyone knows that some XO's can give a sig for just touching a car whereas others let you dust 100yds of oil slick and you get nothing. That's if you can find an XO. They're getting rare.

I fully (FULLY) appreciate that on the job training (i.e. deal with a real incident) is absolutely the best training you can get. But it's very disheartening to some trainees who may have long spells of no pork pies and then, when an XO appears from heaven, he's in a bad mood.

I still believe a points system would be better where, say, 100 points gets you a grade. If you turn up on post you get a point even if you just pick your nose all day (you always learn something watching a race or other posts). Touch a car (i.e. push) then you get, say, 5. Create a graduated 'scale of involvement' and all the XO has to do is to look at the scale, with a caveat that he can reduce the award of points if the marshal deserves it for some reason. Allow ordinary observers to allocate points, or even an IO can give one point at least.
That way a trainee who wants to upgrade gets some physical recognition every time he/she turns up.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by tidykiwi

Can't say Id really enjoy standing in one place all day waving flags or communicating with race control. At the end of the day I wanted to be involved in motorsport and close to the action, and I am, so thats good enough for me.

....and flagging or Observing isn't being involved?
A flag marshal is more involved, more of the time than any course/incident marshal.
An Observer isn't just someone who rings race control to let them know someone has crashed!

As you said in your post, you're a trainee marshal, so you still have a lot to learn. (I am an Exm Observer who still has a lot to learn!)

Now, (The contentious bit!) you also say that you forget to present your grading card or forget to bring it. There's really absolutely no way i can tell you that you must bring & present your card, BUT if every trainee adopts this policy, in time we will only have trainee marshals........no course/incident/flag/observers etc..as they will have all died/retired!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by rescue dude

One tip is you can get i believe 4 signatures on a circuit grading card from hillclimbs and sprints.

As your from Shropshire your not too far from Loton park, which has a round of the British hillclimb Championahip this weekend. Shelsley Walsh is not too far either.

You certainly can, as long as it's for a comparative grade - not flags, for instance. However you can get them for incident handling, and chances are you're more likely to do some of that at a hilclimb, and with the advantage that you can learn how to handle an incident without worrying about other traffic. I'd strongly recommend either of RD's suggestions.

It took me 2½ years to get a green, and less than 11 months to get to red after that (although I had to wait until the year was up). It's not a race, and it makes little difference once you're known as to what you do. The first thing you're always asked is your experience, anyway. What it does mean is you won't be asked to supervise trainees, yet. Now don't get me wrong, that's a task I thoroughly enjoy, but while you're still gaining experience in the first few years it helps not to have to consider someone else.

As long as you're enjoying the hobby, the colour of the badge is irrelevent.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by numbersix

That's if you can find an XO. They're getting rare.

Go to Oulton Park - I can hardly think of a time I've marshalled there that there hasn't been a Black X around (sometimes there's 2!)

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Robin_D

I keep forgetting my grading card and am still classified a trainee after starting in 2000. I attend 20 - 25 events a year. I'm not too bothered, I am still trusted.

Fine, but that can create problems. If you venture away from your normal environment, what indication of your level of experience & ability can you show? The chief marshal or whoever does the post allocation needs to get the best blend of marshals on every post, the IO needs to organise the team to ensure that the expertise available is used to best advantage. If you turn up on a post, as far as anyone who doesn't know you is concerned, you're a trainee.

You're creating a crazy situation where you could actually be working with an IO (possibly even an observer?) who has done less marshalling than you have! At a time when experienced marshals are becoming very thin on the ground, the experience of people such as you needs, in my opinion, to be formally recognised.

[Manny]

Thanks folks, Plenty of tips to go on. Never really thought of going to race control when I couldn't get sig's after a heavy day. Probably keep going until 10 is reached, not to bothered about going any further after then as I do enjoy being on the bank. Think the points system would work a treat.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Manny

Thanks folks, Plenty of tips to go on. Never really thought of going to race control when I couldn't get sig's after a heavy day. Probably keep going until 10 is reached, not to bothered about going any further after then as I do enjoy being on the bank. Think the points system would work a treat.

Personally I would save the embarrassment of going to RC as you're "More Than Likely" going to be told that they can't/won't help!
After all, how do they know if you've performed well enough. However, if you DO have an Observer who isn't an X - you could maybe ask him/her to endorse your performance to the Clerk. Still no guarentees though.

I think the "Points" system would never work.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

After all, how do they know if you've performed well enough. However, if you DO have an Observer who isn't an X - you could maybe ask him/her to endorse your performance to the Clerk. Still no guarentees though.

Another alternative is to enquire as to if there's an XO at an adjacent post. For plenty of posts, they can still see if you're doing a decent job, and can easily confirm with the Observer/IO on your actual post to check if you have earned a sig or not.

[White flag man]

Manny, I'm glad you brought this up.
This is my first full year as a marshal and, not including training, I have so far attended 22 days racing, for which I have received 5 Grading signatures. The main problem I see is that, unless your one of the 400 attending the DTM meeting , then a lot of the time, at some circuits, your are on your own without an observer in sight. This doesn't mean I don't enjoy doing it, I certainly do, it just makes it very frustrating to have put in all that effort, without being officially recognised. With the lack of marshals and the Volunteers in Motorsport initiative, I just think there must be a better way. For example If you have been put on flag duty, then, regardless whether there is an observer on post or not, at some point, the chances are, you would have waved a flag. So surely Race control or the Chief Marshal can sign your attendence card and your Grading card. Of course the same cannot be said for incident marshals, but if there is an incident then why, if you were involved, can't you get your card signed by the incident Officer. I don't think a points system would really work because that would still involved someone observing you,
Anyway, I'll come down off my soap box and keep enjoying the meetings.
Good luck to all those at the GP and going to Le Mans. Keep safe and keep your fellow Oranges/Blacks safe . Next meeting Castle Combe, end of the month.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by White flag man

For example If you have been put on flag duty, then, regardless whether there is an observer on post or not, at some point, the chances are, you would have waved a flag. So surely Race control or the Chief Marshal can sign your attendence card and your Grading card.

......for the same reasons I referred to earlier!
Race Control or the Chief Marshal are not neccessarily watching you!

Also, FWIW, the Ch Marshal may not be in a position to sign grading cards
Race Control houses many people of various disciplines - not all eligible to sign grading cards.

Attendance cards do not need to be signed by an Observer (Of any sort) - these may be signed by your IO or the Flag Marshal (Possibly even your partner?)

The idea of IO's giving Grading Signatures may cause problems.
(I can see where you're coming from but.........)
For example:-
Trainee marshal is told by X Obs that he/she didn't warrant getting a grading signature.........trainee then goes to IO who does sign his card!
Surely this would be seen as undermining the Observers descision? Remember, the Observer is in overall charge of the post.
That was just a hypothetical example and I appreciate that White Flag Man probably meant it for where there was no Observer - but it's open to abuse!

The current grading system perhaps does need tweeking - but at present I don't have the answer.

As the old wise owl (Dave Brand) says earlier - grading shouldn't be rushed and you should learn to enjoy your hobby more than see a need to get a badge at the earliest opportunity. That said, it is damned good when you do lose the white badge and I can appreciate the frustration at feeling stuck with it.
As others have said, stick with it - you'll be a better Marshal for it!

[tidykiwi]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

....and flagging or Observing isn't being involved?
A flag marshal is more involved, more of the time than any course/incident marshal.
An Observer isn't just someone who rings race control to let them know someone has crashed!

As you said in your post, you're a trainee marshal, so you still have a lot to learn. (I am an Exm Observer who still has a lot to learn!)

Now, (The contentious bit!) you also say that you forget to present your grading card or forget to bring it. There's really absolutely no way i can tell you that you must bring & present your card, BUT if every trainee adopts this policy, in time we will only have trainee marshals........no course/incident/flag/observers etc..as they will have all died/retired!

Calm down bro! Look at the rest of the message. You've read it the wrong way...all I want to do is be involved in the sport, and I am which is great. Im not bothered about collecting x-hundred signatures so that I can flag or observe...Im happy enough doing what Im doing now. I fully appreciate the hard work involved in flagging and observing and the need to be 100% focussed on whats going on on the track all the time.

jeez! the sun really does do funny things to you poms

[Asp]

Originally Posted by White flag man

For example If you have been put on flag duty, then, regardless whether there is an observer on post or not, at some point, the chances are, you would have waved a flag. So surely Race control or the Chief Marshal can sign your attendence card and your Grading card.

Remember, a signature is to say that you have completed your duty to a satisfactory standard; so even with flagging there's a need to be watched (in whatever form and by whoever that may take)
You may well have waved a flag during the day - but if the only flag it was was a red flag when mishearing something on a scanner and you dutifully caused the premature end to a race, you wouldn't be getting a signature!!

[fazza]

Everyone knows that some XO's can give a sig for just touching a car whereas others let you dust 100yds of oil slick and you get nothing. That's if you can find an XO. They're getting rare.

Then surley we should be looking to advance trainees sooner rather than later to help replace this experiance that is being lost.Some people leasn quicker that other and are looking to become more than course marshals there is a need for a uniform scoring system that all XO's use where grading is concerned.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by fazza

Then surley we should be looking to advance trainees sooner rather than later to help replace this experiance that is being lost.

The risk you take in trying to speed people's progress through the grades is that you do so by lowering standards. The only thing that can replace experience is......experience! Take it from me, things look a lot different five years down the road!

Some people leasn quicker that other and are looking to become more than course marshals there is a need for a uniform scoring system that all XO's use where grading is concerned.

I agree that there's a need for more consistency, but a scoring system would increase the workload on XOs without necessarily making the system any more fair.

[DaveW]

Applicable to anyone looking for an upgrade signature, ask at signing on if your observer (or post chief for pits/paddock etc.) is an examining observer and make it known that you are looking for an upgrade signature - subject to satisfactory performance, of course.

The chief marshal may not know but can check and, if manning levels and experience allow, be able to move you to another post where an examining observer is working.

Ultimately though, as has been mentioned by other posts, it isn't a race but is nice to have one's experience recognised. More importantly, don't stop learning and listening.