What is the Real incentive of LMP1-L vs LMP2?

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

There's 33 cars so far for the AsLMS, that's near as much as the wec.

And ELMS has more. How is this an answer to the question of this topic???

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

And ELMS has more. How is this an answer to the question of this topic???

The thread topic is the incentive of LMP1-L vs LMP2. So the conversation is way off that anyway. But my point was that AsLMS (which allows current lmp2's) isn't on life support any more. Not sure why you're comparing it to ELMS when that series has been around in one form or another for decades.

[Mike E]

From the horse's mouth.

“Up until Austin we were looking at being in LMP1 next year,” Hayden said. “It was only on the flight home from Austin, I happened to be on the same flight to Heathrow with Alex Pesci. We had time to chat.

“He had seen the racing in Austin and how close the LMP2 cars were. Given what people are saying how quick they’re going to be next year, he was asking if they’re going to be quicker than the R-Ones next year.

“I said, I guess on the sprint tracks they could be but not necessarily at Le Mans."

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/r...-lmp2-program/

[Coach Ep]

It sounds like Rebellion's owner needed a reality check.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

It sounds like Rebellion's owner needed a reality check.

Sounds like's had one.

Spend lots of money to play with 1 team, whilst the cars behind you are getting faster, and fight for a meaningless class.

Spend less money to play with lots of teams and fight for proper class wins.

[MagVanisher]

Should I add this as ACO is planning to revitalize the LMP1 Privateer grid by 2018?

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/a...ries-for-2018/

[carbsmith]

Looking at those comments it's kind of annoying how all discussion of LMP1 Privateer has just turned into a dead horse kicking exercise without people paying attention to what's actually happening.

Take Rebellion. Why should they be withdrawing from P1 because their current car might not be faster than 2017 LMP2s when the 2017 LMP1 Privateer regulations are theoretically notably faster than this year's? Well let's back up a couple months to when they announced they were withdrawing the second car from the rest of the season and said it was because they couldn't race and develop the car for next year at the same time. The P2 performance comparison is pretty much an admission they weren't going to have a properly developed 2017 car anyways, which is not much of a surprise when I don't think we've seen a new aero part on the car in two years.

Strakka said about as much that they didn't think they could be ready in time when the 2017 rules were announced.

So is 2018 possible? Maybe. There's certainly no reason teams couldn't have cars prepared in time. It all depends on whether they think they can find the performance in the regulations the ACO believes exists. I think it's a mistake to believe the R-One represents the potential of the class even now let alone next year. It doesn't take a lot either, if you get another two car team to commit and Rebellion decides it's worth racing against them you have more of a prototype class than most we've seen in recent years.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

So is 2018 possible? Maybe. There's certainly no reason teams couldn't have cars prepared in time. It all depends on whether they think they can find the performance in the regulations the ACO believes exists. I think it's a mistake to believe the R-One represents the potential of the class even now let alone next year. It doesn't take a lot either, if you get another two car team to commit and Rebellion decides it's worth racing against them you have more of a prototype class than most we've seen in recent years.

Except for the most part Rebellion IS the potential of the class, no one else has shown up with anything faster. Hyundai could have an LMP1 class destroyer on paper but until it's here Audi/Porsche/Toyota get to be the potential of the class. The fact that over 2 or 3 years there's been nothing but crickets coming from the wings to fill in the class means it has no potential. The ACO can do their usual PR damage control of wishing and 'prepping' for more entries but as the old saying goes, wish in one hand and ____ in the other, and see which fills first. It's the CLM class for 2017 and the camera will pass right by like this year until it bursts into flames.

[TF110]

You're confusing potential with commitment. No one wants to commit to the class. That's not the same as saying that the class has potential. Manufacturers are going to have to run a hybrid or alternative fuel source. Private teams get to go all out but they don't have the budget equality. It remains to be seen if the cars can match the hybrids because no one wants to be the first to jump in.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Except for the most part Rebellion IS the potential of the class, no one else has shown up with anything faster. Hyundai could have an LMP1 class destroyer on paper but until it's here Audi/Porsche/Toyota get to be the potential of the class. The fact that over 2 or 3 years there's been nothing but crickets coming from the wings to fill in the class means it has no potential. The ACO can do their usual PR damage control of wishing and 'prepping' for more entries but as the old saying goes, wish in one hand and ____ in the other, and see which fills first. It's the CLM class for 2017 and the camera will pass right by like this year until it bursts into flames.

So by that logic were the LMP675 rules flawed because the best car that showed up at first was a 750kg aluminum tub stock block Nissan powered FIA SR2 Lola and the fastest was an even heavier Reynard designed for LMP900?

I'm not sure there's even any way you could possibly make being a P1 privateer all that appealing as long as the factory battle is as insanely fierce as it is right now, we haven't seen this kind of competition since the late years of Group C and GTP and maybe 1 season of GT1. You could give them old factory cars and they'd still be hopeless.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Should I add this as ACO is planning to revitalize the LMP1 Privateer grid by 2018?

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/a...ries-for-2018/

Blablabla.

Is there anyone left that takes the ACO seriously about this???

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Blablabla.

Is there anyone left that takes the ACO seriously about this???

The annoying thing about this is they could just accept the DPi rules and have a shot at a very strong P1-P class but they are too stuck up in their ways to do it.

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

The annoying thing about this is they could just accept the DPi rules and have a shot at a very strong P1-P class but they are too stuck up in their ways to do it.

You could but remember that DPi and P2 are the same. What differentiates them is bodywork branding and GT3 engines. Horsepower, weight, chassis are the same (in theory mind you). So what would the difference be between a P2 class with 2017 P2s and a P1-P with DPi?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

The annoying thing about this is they could just accept the DPi rules and have a shot at a very strong P1-P class but they are too stuck up in their ways to do it.

Originally Posted by YZFrider

You could but remember that DPi and P2 are the same. What differentiates them is bodywork branding and GT3 engines. Horsepower, weight, chassis are the same (in theory mind you). So what would the difference be between a P2 class with 2017 P2s and a P1-P with DPi?

DPi could also be used as a template, not using the exact same configuration as IMSA. Let the GT3 engines be massaged to a higher h.p. rating, thus putting them into a higher performance envelope and separating them from the P-2s. Ease the engine run time restrictions vs the P-2 requirement but still keep it in a cost controlled window. But....









L.P.

[carbsmith]

That's not P1 though. It's P2b. Why would any privateer choose to run more expensive BoP based P2?

[Coach Ep]

They wouldn't. But a few manufacturers would - Mazda for sure, possibly Nissan and GM. And perhaps also others that we're unaware of.

[Mike E]

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...ampaign=buffer

The troubles at VW have surely got the ACO's attention. If Audi pull out, maybe Porsche will too. That leaves Toyota and ByKolles. Not exactly a thrilling prospect.

Everyone knows the problems - massive power deficit, massive traction deficit, some aero deficit. What you gonna do?

[TF110]

Porsche won't pull out. The Audi pulling out is a rumor anyway. We'll see in a few weeks what their plan is. If anything they'll probably just announce next year's program and then we'll go through this whole ordeal again this time in 2017.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

That's not P1 though. It's P2b. Why would any privateer choose to run more expensive BoP based P2?

Point is P1-L should be open for DPi, and not restrictet to DPi only. Allow semi-factory teams in P1-L (like DPi) at the same time allow current P1-L cars as well as what HORNDAWG proposes. You'll have variety and manufacturer involvement which will promote the category and drive development. Good intake port for manufacturers too. Teams would run cars in it, as it means you'll go to Le Mans in a category where you can actually make a difference to the car and your own performance, instead of running in P2 against 15 other identical cars that has identical speed.
Mind you, the tub is already identical in P1 and P2, so one could argue P1 is already a more expensive P2 (As Rebellion has shown!)

[Akrapovic]

Porsche won't pull out now, but there's nothing to say they won't soon, and same with Toyota. Porsches history in the 80s was great, but in the 90s they did pull a plug late. Toyota haven't stuck around very long historically either - although they're doing a better job now.

No manufacturer is reliable really.

[TzeiTzei]

I would be happy to see DPi in LMP1. I think it could be a potential platform for customer cars. And why not for factory teams too. But they would have to be faster than the LMP2s.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

I would be happy to see DPi in LMP1. I think it could be a potential platform for customer cars. And why not for factory teams too. But they would have to be faster than the LMP2s.

Exactly, and currently they are projected to be the same speed as LMP2 so something would have to change. More power? Less weight?

[JHamilton]

I've been thinking for a while that natural selection will sort this out for us. If DPi proves to be successful, the ACO will jump all over it. It will take a few years though.

[Coach Ep]

We all know the current cost spiraling curve cannot be kept up for much longer so there are some (drastic?) changes around the corner.

IF Audi (and Porsche as well?) were to drop out, Peugeot will be quick to pick up the pieces and take the fight to Toyota - on a much thinner budget than what is required right now - and others might join the ring. Basically the same development if DPi were to be included.

It's a all a big cycle anyway. So if you wanna see 3 big manufacturers go head-to-head with ridiculously expensive and powerful machinery, you better plan your trip soon - it ain't gonna last!

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I've been thinking for a while that natural selection will sort this out for us. If DPi proves to be successful, the ACO will jump all over it. It will take a few years though.

I think like you, if the DPI is successful, the ACO will take it.
Perhaps with less BOP.