The Best LM car freely to privateers?

[Splatz the Cow]

What is the best LM car that was freely available to privateers from the very start, including all variations of the original.

Eg long or short tails, B or C configurations, different years models and evolutions.

This is where I think that Porsche is very good as they seem to cater perfectly for the privateer, like in the case of the 917, 956, 911 RSR, 993 GT2, 996 GT3. However, I would not include the 911 GT1 in this as it was initially supplied only to Porsche AG in 1996, then the Evo was only available to Porsche AG in 1997 (until the last two races of the season when Porsche had no hope of winning the championship and one car was supplied to JB Racing, #17.)

Was the 917 and 956 also originally only a works car?

My heart here wants to say the McLaren F1 GTR
1995 Le Mans: 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 13th. Did Not Finish = 2 from 7 starters.
1996 Le Mans: 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th. DNFs = 1 from 7 starters.
1997 Le Mans: 2nd, 3rd. DNFs = 3 from 5 starters. DNS = 1 from 6 qualified
1998 Le Mans: 4th. DNF = 1 from 2 starters.

But my head says Porsche 993 GT2 is the best car for Privateers ever.

What say ye?

Let me know of others that may need to be added to the list.

[Aysedasi]

Well, you know me, I'll go for the McLaren any day of the week. I believe I'm right in saying that both the 917 and the 956 were works only cars at first. The position with the 917 is slightly compliucated by the JWA/Salzburg positions (as I recall from JWs book), but I think the 956s were works only in 82, becoiming available to privateers in 83?

[Aysedasi]

And BTW, if anyone starts a "worst car to privateers" thread, they can definitely expect some negative feedback....... I think we've got enough best/worst thread going for the time being.......

[Splatz the Cow]

How do I remove the 917 and 956 from the list then, and what do I replace them with (and how)?

[Aysedasi]

I'll take them off for you.

But you'll have to decide what to replace them with. PM me when you've decided!

[Aysedasi]

But where's the McLaren?


I've now added it and taken off your two general options Splatz. If you want to add other options (now up to 3 more), PM me with the details - you can't do it yourself, I'm afraid.

[JoeF]

I would have to add the Porsche 935. Countless privateers thru the years including an overall in 1979 for Kremer.

[The Badger]

Its gotta be the Porsche 911 GT3 RSR ! Buy it and go racing ..... end of story . Its also twice as cheap as a 360 to run , which doesnt work great all the time anyway !!!

Porsche is your man !!!

[jhansen]

Yeah, I'd have to go with the Porsche 993 GT3 RSR for my vote. It's the real deal and allows you to be very competitive from the get go.

The Ferrari 333SP gets strong mention as well. That was a great privateer program in its own right.

Would the Aston Martin DBR9 qualify? Yes, the factory has raced it initially, but theoretically privateers could race it before the year is finished correct?

[vs346]

what about the Ferrari 550?

[superfox2000]

Originally Posted by vs346

what about the Ferrari 550?

It has to be the Porsche 935; however some were replicas, some were Kremer K3's and others were modified 911's. Still a great car!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Well, you know me, I'll go for the McLaren any day of the week. I believe I'm right in saying that both the 917 and the 956 were works only cars at first. The position with the 917 is slightly compliucated by the JWA/Salzburg positions (as I recall from JWs book), but I think the 956s were works only in 82, becoiming available to privateers in 83?

The Porsche 917's first race was by privateer, though the entrant is listed as the factory officially. It was Gardner/Piper, when the factory drivers refused to drive the car.

The 956's rac 82' as works, and indeed privateer after that.

[Nordic]

If the fact that the 'werks' team ran a car first, aka the 956, then you need to look at the 935 as well. The 'werks' Martini 935's ran before it was sold to any teams.

But it was the best grp 5 car, and the private teams had success with it over a long period of time with teams making modified cars, Kremer, Joest, and some in the states.

What about the Lola T70? was there ever a works team that ran one? It had (and still does) alot of race wins both in europe and the US. And it looks great!

[PascaLM]

The Porsche 911 has always been both the cheapest and the most reliable car.

[Aysedasi]

I think we're going to have a very complicated poll here if we get overly concerned about the (say) one year that the car was run by the works only. I'm quite happy to add the 917, 935 and 956, but we then run the risk of having a highly Porsche-dominated poll! (And you may well also say that's quite right!). But it's Splatz's thread, so I'll hand the decision over to him......

[PenelopePitstop]

What about adding the MGA & MGB?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The Porsche 917's first race was by privateer, though the entrant is listed as the factory officially. It was Gardner/Piper, when the factory drivers refused to drive the car.

There was also a privateer driving one at its first appearance at Le Mans - John Woolfe, and tragically he died in it within minutes of the start, and Porsche were roundly criticised for selling such an underdeveloped and ill handling car to a privateer. I love the 917 which became one of the greatest ever sports racing cars, but there is no doubt than in 1969, it was quite possibly one of the worst cars ever to be made available to a privateer (at that stage some of the works drivers wouldn't even touch it), so it has no pkace on this thread. However, as Ayse says, I won't start a 'worst' thread, as well.

[jna]

I woner if you can say that the McLaren F1 GTR was "freely" available? I go with the 935/911 variations down the years.

[Aysedasi]

Well there were 5 of them on the grid in 95. McLaren made a big thing about not expecting them to go racing.... And yes, I know what is said about the winning car.... I think it fully deserves the customer car tag, personally.

I'll add the MGs as a joint addition, just for you, PP.

[iucrmh]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Well there were 5 of them on the grid in 95. McLaren made a big thing about not expecting them to go racing.... And yes, I know what is said about the winning car.... I think it fully deserves the customer car tag, personally.

The whole program was essentially customer driven, with customers asking the factory to develop the racing version. In fact there were 7 F1 GTRs at Le Mans in 1995, 2 Gulf, 1 Harrods and 1 West (Dave Price cars), 1 Ueno Clinic (Lanzante), 1 Jacadi and the Art car as well.

[Aysedasi]

I'd forgotten the Gulf cars Mike, How did I manage that......?

[jna]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

And yes, I know what is said about the winning car

I expect you saw The June 2005 issue of Motorsport article about the 1995 F1 GTRs. It was interesting to read the comment from a 'less repentant Bellm' about the Lanzante car.

This argument will go on into history along with whether or not Geoff Hurst's second goal was a goal in the World Cup Final.

[skycafe]

Ferrari 365 GTB/4 -the Daytona!
GT winner at Le Mans 72, 73, 74. Not far removed from the street version (not as far as those fancy Porsche RSR's).

Class winner, second overall, and spiritual victor of 1979 Daytona 24 Hours.

Spiritual victor has got to count for something

robert

[jna]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Not far removed from the street version

Yes indeed, and perhaps therefore one has look even further back, pre-war, for the road car that was on the open market and that you could race effectively at Le Mans.

[Splatz the Cow]

Nice discussion going on here.

The reason I titled this Poll as I did also adds restrictions aimed at focusing our attention on those cars that are not always in the limelight yet make up the majority of the grid or make the teams that run them happy.

Okay truth be told I wanted to keep the Audi R8 out of the poll!

When we look at Le Mans for the past 15 years the Lower class has always been filled with Porsches, starting out with Porsche 911 Carreras or Turbos, then the 993 model of RSR, Carrera, Bi-Turbo, GT2, (and GT2 Evo in GT1 class). In all that time there was never to my knowledge a Works team for this model of Porsche! This is still true with the Porsche 996 GT3 that has ben running in various forms all around the world.

With this notion in mind I tried to think of other cars that are so accessable for the customer, without having to be always one season behind the Factory team as is often the case.

Jna, Being a road car or not doesn't matter in this case. Many great customer cars a track specials, and the Ferrari 333 SP is a great example.

Please add your votes if you haven't voted yet, as I'll ask Aysedasi to update the poll options.