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Old 21 Oct 2014, 22:21 (Ref:3467209)   #1176
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The P2 auto entries are solid gold since they are only given to the class/series winners really. But the thing with LMP2 at Le Mans is that strangely more often than not it's not quite the ultimate excitement show as the entry list would suggest, for whatever reason. I mean it's good, but not quite there. Sure they're not exploding one by one like they used to in late P675 / early P2 era (there was certain charm to that though ) but somehow the field has tended to spread out every year the current cost-cap-mediocre-performance P2 formula has run. Well anyway, at least the new coupes and stuff keep it interesting.

P1 auto entry is sort of useless as since the WEC is the only remaining place to run those cars anyway, and realistically the ACO isn't gonna deny any P1 entrant (full/partial/one-off) are they really. They will take anyone willing to race. IIRC the last P1 to end up in the sewer was Hope Racing's hybrid some years ago, but those were different times

Really, really wouldn't mind if they threw some of those AM auto entries to the reserve lists so that we get more prototypes instead... I mean when you think about it it doesn't sense make for auto entries to not end up on the actual initial list, but if Team Taisan "deserved" it this year, then so do teams like AII...

Anyway, the two USCC at-large auto entries are gonna go for LMP2 and/or GTE-AM only due to the pro-am force feed, and more likely to AM, so more of that coming up...
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Old 22 Oct 2014, 08:04 (Ref:3467312)   #1177
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The P2 auto entries are solid gold since they are only given to the class/series winners really. But the thing with LMP2 at Le Mans is that strangely more often than not it's not quite the ultimate excitement show as the entry list would suggest, for whatever reason. I mean it's good, but not quite there. Sure they're not exploding one by one like they used to in late P675 / early P2 era (there was certain charm to that though ) but somehow the field has tended to spread out every year the current cost-cap-mediocre-performance P2 formula has run. Well anyway, at least the new coupes and stuff keep it interesting...
I agree with this apart from this year, where I thought the class came of age and produced a cracker of a race.
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Old 22 Oct 2014, 12:14 (Ref:3467366)   #1178
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I agree with this apart from this year, where I thought the class came of age and produced a cracker of a race.
Yeah this year was better than 11-13 I've gotta say, even if I don't yet subscribe for the cracker
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Old 22 Oct 2014, 13:35 (Ref:3467387)   #1179
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Yeah this year was better than 11-13 I've gotta say, even if I don't yet subscribe for the cracker
Thought having the top three in shot on Sunday afternoon was pretty decent, and the cameras seem to miss the Formula-Ford style stuff you get in the opening laps.

Do agree that it's like we're waiting for something to happen in that class - but it will come.

I don't really know why they want to change it in 2017. If it ain't broke...
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Old 22 Oct 2014, 16:07 (Ref:3467423)   #1180
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Yeah this year was better than 11-13 I've gotta say, even if I don't yet subscribe for the cracker
They are all good - but 2011 was the best race I have seen at Le Mans.
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Old 22 Oct 2014, 16:08 (Ref:3467424)   #1181
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Well in recent years the sub-P1 TV coverage has improved in the first 30 minutes which in the past used to be solely Pug-Audi with some random climpses backwards.

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They are all good - but 2011 was the best race I have seen at Le Mans.
We were talking of LMP2 alone
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Old 22 Oct 2014, 16:21 (Ref:3467425)   #1182
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Well in recent years the sub-P1 TV coverage has improved in the first 30 minutes which in the past used to be solely Pug-Audi with some random climpses backwards.



We were talking of LMP2 alone
Ok - teach me to come in half way through.... carry on!
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Old 23 Oct 2014, 08:21 (Ref:3467564)   #1183
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Well in recent years the sub-P1 TV coverage has improved in the first 30 minutes which in the past used to be solely Pug-Audi with some random climpses backwards.
I suspect this reflects the difference between watching it on TV and being there. Trackside you get the chance to look at what the different classes are doing, albeit just from the perspective of the single bit of track you're looking at, while on TV you're somewhat at the mercy of what the producer wants to show you. In that light I've found LMP2 to be pretty absorbing the last few years.
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Old 23 Oct 2014, 10:38 (Ref:3467586)   #1184
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i always enjoyed the lmp2 classes but after visiting the oak team last year my admiration for what these smaller less well funded teams do increased and i also now enjoy watching the elms races where this class is the top cars
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Old 23 Oct 2014, 10:58 (Ref:3467588)   #1185
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i like lmp2 a lot. watching elms this year has been like watching old school formula 3 again - there's 3 different chassis at the front of the field, and they all have strengths and weaknesses in different areas just like the drivers and the teams themselves. it's fascinating that even though these chassis are mostly quite long in the tooth there's still more time to be extracted, and bodywork combos to tweak.

lmp1 is ok but to me it's like f1. i really don't understand the technologies involved, and the amount of money thrown at it reduces the appeal. a small team can run a lmp2 car from the back of a trailer on a very minimal budget and still be within a respectable distance of a team run from a shiny truck wearing a shiny uniform.
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Old 23 Oct 2014, 12:10 (Ref:3467614)   #1186
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And, and, there's no (actual) BoP in the class which makes it ever so more genuine, and the chassis variation on top is very appealing.

isynge - yes that's true. Wish I could see them live someday

Anyway, I'd still have (privateer) P1 in ELMS as top class instead of P2 though.
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Old 23 Oct 2014, 13:28 (Ref:3467633)   #1187
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sure, but nobody's going to pay the money for that. you're wanting to establish a class that simply wouldn't have any interest.

if even alpine/renault are dragging their feet over stumping up the cash for a lmp2 wec effort even when they're now double elms champions, then what chance does anyone have of finding enough to compete with a lmp1 car? they're far more expensive to run even as a customer effort - parts are more costly, the tech is stupidly complicated, there's relatively little choice in chassis...

(also: not sure lmp2 is as genuine as you make out compared to the bop drama you're so fond of. there's clearly some sort of hierarchy, it's just imposed by nissan rather than the aco surely...)
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Old 23 Oct 2014, 15:39 (Ref:3467659)   #1188
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I'm dead sure that if the Le Mans Series had not banned LMP1 after 2011, the privateer situation would've remained far better than it is now - where they are forced to run "for the rest" positions in hyper expensive world championship. Of course right now their availability is so low that any grid made of them would be low, but you need to start somewhere. Cheaper option to run P1 cars on top of Le Mans would surely be welcomed. If the ACO re-established P1 for ELMS next - which they obviously won't but let's pretend - for sure you'd have at least one Rebellion for full season (they've said many times overall wins are what they're after ie also the idea beyond running in the ALMS), Lotus maybe, Oak maybe (if they got the funding) and so on. It'd be a rocky start with small car count but it's not like ELMS is relatively high profile series as it's US counterpart is - or rather was. It would improve in time.

LMP2 would essentially downgrade as division 2 again and yes you could lose a few cars because of that maybe, but if you look at the ELMS P2 grid numbers it's not like they're magically bigger than they were in the pre-headliner class period anyway. I don't think the health of that class is based on being a headliner (because ELMS is a very minor series anyway that no-one but diehards care about, incl media) but because the cost cop formula is successful in itself and running in Europe is cheaper than in world championship.

It would also be nice to see LMP1, LMP2 and the new LMP3 running together. Just because it's an regional series doesn't mean it has to be "feeder series" which I think is what ACO wants to label it as. Especially as most of the teams goal is never to even aim for WEC but rather just compete in ELMS and hope for LM invite.

And as for P2 BoP, they haven't updated those sheets in couple of years now unlike with the other classes, and even before it was really engine vs engine BoP, not chassis vs chassis. The open top HPD has an restrictor break for example but nothing too bad otherwise IIRC

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Old 23 Oct 2014, 16:05 (Ref:3467662)   #1189
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you're still presuming that everyone will find the money to do all those probables and "oh yeah we'd do it" statements.

i think you're a bit confused with what the teams have said in the past about what they'd commit to. in single seaters for example, teams express their intentions to compete in a series to signal their availability to drivers who might want to compete in something that the team doesn't. very rarely does the team actually get round to competing. you can have 50 team bosses at a new series launch and 12 who bother buying cars.

why would they open up elms which is working brilliantly as a pro-amateur type series to teams with more money than sense for the sake of a couple of speculative cars? that's what wec is for. they've just opened up the lower end of the field again to lmp3 which clearly shows you the kind of market they're aiming for.

you're right though, the success of lmp2 in elms isn't based on it being a headliner, but if it gets relegated for the sake of a tiny field it won't exactly be good for it. but then the more i think about it, the more i suspect it's probably still a decent advantage of elms over wec - at least if you're at the front of the lmp2 class in elms you get the headline press about it. you're on the overall podium, not the class one.

nope, sorry, definitely disagreeing with you on that front! in case you hadn't noticed

fwiw though there's definitely a decent media presence at elms. it's often a significant local interest though.
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Old 23 Oct 2014, 18:16 (Ref:3467692)   #1190
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The Le Mans Series, even at it's hay day years ago when you had the Pugs and other big names in it, was always the nichest of niche series, mere shadow of the ALMS. That's not to say anything about the quality of the series, just that it was obscure little caravan with small fan base. And it's arguably even smaller now with all pro-am fields, second and third division classes and bigger series having surpassed it. You get minor media coverage even in specialist press. It's nice for competitors, but that's it.

So with that in mind, if we were to re-establish new top class while retaining all the other categories as they are now, how exactly would we be spoiling anything that is there currently? If you had even just say three car top class in your series for the first season it would be bad if we were talking of some higher profile series, but for ELMS it wouldn't really damage the outlook of the series when it's merely for nerds anyway. The only, only thing that would change would be the 'downgrade' of LMP2 and how that could/might effect the field size, and I covered that already in previous post. The other pro-am aspects would remain.

But furthermore, if we look at how the ELMS P2 grid count has evolved in this decade

2010 (with LMP1 & 1 race under ILMC)
Round 1 - 12x
Round 2 - 11x
Round 3 - 07x
Round 4 - 11x
Round 5 - 11x (of 13x)

2011 (with LMP1 & 3 races under ILMC)
Round 1 - 10x
Round 2 - 08x (of 11x)
Round 3 - 10x (of 13x)
Round 4 - 08x (of 10x)
Round 5 - 08x

2012 (top class & 1 race under ALMS)
Round 1 - 11x
Round 2 - 09x
Round 3 - 04x (of 08x)

2013 (top class)
Round 1 - 08x
Round 2 - 10x
Round 3 - 08x
Round 4 - 08x
Round 5 - 08x

2014 (top class)
Round 1 - 11x
Round 2 - 09x
Round 3 - 08x
Round 4 - 10x
Round 5 - 10x

You can see that them upgrading to top class hasn't affected the grid numbers at all. Likely downgrading again would neither, for the previously mentioned reasons and because WEC is more expensive and some teams just want to stay in Europe in the first place. The attractiveness of the series should remain. Particularly since the ACO seems to be handing LM invites somewhat generously for supporting the series now.

Anyway, I'm saying that ELMS should be true (preferred) alternative for P1 privateers instead of WEC. We've had many teams saying that entering the privateer side is quite pointless now due to eventually finishing behind all the factories in every race - and no one gives a crap about the subclass, also signaled by P-Light disappearing next year AND people like Jacques Nicolet wanting to get rid of it. So hey, here would be a series for you to win overall. Your arguments for P2 being the overall winners are exactly same as they would be for P1 privateers. Right now, if LMP1 privateer wants to do anything at all, he needs to go for WEC and that means exponentially bigger budget than for ELMS (+Le Mans). So finding budget for something cheaper shouldn't be that hard.

Rebellion Racing is a prime example of a team that has said in public they want to go for overall wins too, and which actually has done so (while still retaining presence in ILMC/WEC). LMS for 2011 after which they were banned from competing in, then ALMS for 2013 after doing one-off appearance at PLM 2012 for the same reason. So yes, there is proof of teams wanting something and then doing it in recent past. And you can't be sure something that something couldn't work if you don't even try.

It's not about "having some small field there in the top" for the sake of having it, it's resurrecting LMP1 privateer prospects in any means necessary from the current hole it's been digged into, and in my mind this would be the most obvious and logical step to do it.

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Old 25 Oct 2014, 06:02 (Ref:3468180)   #1191
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A bit of speculation going on in this article, but apparently there are plans to celebrate McLaren's win 20 years ago with a parade of some 20+ F1 (GTR)'s

Me likey!

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2014/1...-race-day.html
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 08:15 (Ref:3468202)   #1192
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yep like the sound of that Vince plus with an anniversary like this we should see a good number of road cars make the trip next year
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 08:16 (Ref:3468204)   #1193
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A bit of speculation going on in this article, but apparently there are plans to celebrate McLaren's win 20 years ago with a parade of some 20+ F1 (GTR)'s

Me likey!

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2014/1...-race-day.html
Cool news. It would be even better if there was some kind of announcement to coincide with this.
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 15:20 (Ref:3468326)   #1194
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Meh parade laps. I mean I'm sure it's cool for spectators for a bit but still meh. Should've done as with the AMR Festival and brought different Laren iterations racing together, even if had been just five GT1 cars at the front and the rest of the grid filled with their modern GT3s or whatever. The road cars could've made some parade laps then separately
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 17:02 (Ref:3468353)   #1195
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We're getting something for nothing.
It's a nice bonus for the people trackside.
Collectors probably aren't keen on racing.
There will be other support races.
It's not mandatory to complain about everything.
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 17:24 (Ref:3468355)   #1196
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We're getting something for nothing.
It's a nice bonus for the people trackside.
Collectors probably aren't keen on racing.
There will be other support races.
It's not mandatory to complain about everything.
Was thinking the same. Happy with the F1's, looking at so many of them gives me a
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 18:11 (Ref:3468358)   #1197
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Would rather see the old cars than a load of modern GT's i was there when it won so memories will come flooding back
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 19:47 (Ref:3468368)   #1198
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I'd love to see the McLarens, one of my all time favourite cars (and noises!). I'd truly love to see them race, but accept that this is probably wishful thinking... I can take 'cool for spectators' - that at least makes my glass half full rather than half empty.....
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 19:56 (Ref:3468371)   #1199
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I wonder if Hamilton will show up in his Mclaren F1? (if he ever the got one?)
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Old 25 Oct 2014, 20:42 (Ref:3468385)   #1200
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TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!
Whoa! 64 cars at Le Mans a possibility? http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affich...XT000028986864
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