Courage C65

[Thommy]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
[B]That would be the $64,000 Question Thommy....who would step up to purchase one from Courage....

I'll take the money and go home, so- the next one, and the next question please?

There had been rumours about a courage-ALMS-Project for this season, led by a (former?) Risi- engineer, hadn't there?

[Tim Northcutt]

I hadn't heard that rumor, but it is an interesting thought....and would be one to keep an eye on....

RISI Competizione was a competitive group in GT class....a move up in the ranks to an LMP2 would be a logical step if the parties involved wanted to go into the prototype side of the series....less expensive, too...

[The Badger]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
I make no bones about it at all, I'm not an R8 fan. I liked the original (and liked the R8C better - he says for the 456th time), but I never thought the R8 looked quite "right". I can't put my finger on it, but to me, there's something slightly ungainly and definitely "unpretty" about the R8.

IMO.

Yeah , I feel the same about the Audi . Its a nice car fair enough but the Courage is cute . The Audi aint cute

[BSchneiderFan]

Actually, I disagree. I've always found the R8 a very handsome car, certainly much more so than, say, the R8R or the BMW V12 LMR. But getting dangerously off-topic...

Anyhoo, I do hope someone buys a C65 for the ALMS. I think it demonstrated at Le Mans that it can at least play in the same park as the Lola/MG, so why doesn't someone decide to do something different and go the Courage route?

[jhansen]

I agree. The current R8 is visually superior to the original. No contest. But regarding a team changing to the Courage C65, it only takes money.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
I hadn't heard that rumor, but it is an interesting thought....and would be one to keep an eye on....

RISI Competizione was a competitive group in GT class....a move up in the ranks to an LMP2 would be a logical step if the parties involved wanted to go into the prototype side of the series....less expensive, too...

A step up or a step down? Personally I think it will be a step down. Lets not forget the new LMP 2 class cars will run to the same engine regulations as now, but weight 75kg more. Now at the moment some of the top GT class cars are faster than some of the LMP 675 cars anyway, so when the LMP 2 class comes in they will be even slower again. Perhaps the GT class could be faster than the new LMP 2 division.

[skycafe]

Quick note about Risi Competizione. They partnered with Rand and won SRPII class and third overall at Daytona 24 in 2002. Also, a lot of experience in running the Ferrari 333. So they already have prototype experience.

Back on the topic of the good showing by the Courage, has anyone happened on a website about the JPX engine, which the Courage used to good effect Sunday?

[billnchristy]

I dont think the 2s are gonna be as slow as people think, and they dang sure aint gonna be as slow as GA made 2s.

[billnchristy]

oh yeah, besides most 675s weigh 750 already so they arent losing or gaining a thing, its just a more realistic number.

[Fab]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Weaver & Leitzinger get every ounce out of whatever they drive....

Question:

I was under the impression that there were certain 675s that would not be classified as LMP2s next year...like the MG-Lolas....but apparently this Courage will be...since it was purpose-built to ultimately run in this category....

Is that the case (for some of the 675s)?????

That's the way I understood it from various posts by Mulsanne Mike, among others...

Please clarify that for all of us....

One simple thing aboutnthat : the weight ; the MGs are at 675 kg or so, the Courage C65 at 750 kg (780 in fact), which is the weight demand by ACO for LMP2 in the new rules.

[Fab]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
A step up or a step down? Personally I think it will be a step down. Lets not forget the new LMP 2 class cars will run to the same engine regulations as now, but weight 75kg more. Now at the moment some of the top GT class cars are faster than some of the LMP 675 cars anyway, so when the LMP 2 class comes in they will be even slower again. Perhaps the GT class could be faster than the new LMP 2 division.

Courage made the opposite demonstration this week-end I'm afraid...

[Thommy]

Originally posted by Fab
One simple thing aboutnthat : the weight ; the MGs are at 675 kg or so, the Courage C65 at 750 kg (780 in fact), which is the weight demand by ACO for LMP2 in the new rules.

I think the Dyson-MG is 688 kg's :confused:

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by 917Addicted
Hum, I'll disagree with you. I find the Courage a very
unnactractive car as was the BMW LMR.

You're kidding me - the LMR was a far far better looking car than the R8.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
Actually, I disagree. I've always found the R8 a very handsome car, certainly much more so than, say, the R8R or the BMW V12 LMR. But getting dangerously off-topic...

Not off-topic at all. The title of the thread is Courage C65 - doesn;t mean we have to be unnecessarily technical about it. Aesthetics are a genuine issue for discussion.......

[Fab]

Originally posted by Thommy
I think the Dyson-MG is 688 kg's :confused:

It fits to the LMP 675 rules perfectly, but not to the new LMP2 (750kg) rules...

The Courage C65 made it, beeing far heavier (100 kgs)...

[Fab]

Originally posted by 917Addicted
Hum, I'll disagree with you. I find the Courage a very
unnactractive car as was the BMW LMR.

This simply shows how different our tastes can be...

I really disliked the 2001' Pilbeam, but I found it attractive with the Dark Dog livery, or the red one we had this week-end... now I appreciate this little car on the track ; same for the Saleens, I found them tasteless, and now very attractive... tastes and opinions can change, no doubt...

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by Fab
Courage made the opposite demonstration this week-end I'm afraid...

Yes but I wonder how fast the cars will be in 2005 when the cars will weight 750kg not 675kg, and run by privateers not the factory team. Id expect the AJR Porsche 911 GT3 RS and Freisinger Porsche to be faster. Also the new for 2004 Porsche 911 is supposed to be a LOT faster than the current 911. Like it or not come 2005 cars like the Courage will be a lot slower, as they will be run by privateers, and will be 75kg heavier than they are now.

[Tim Northcutt]

According to Fab, the Courage already is a little over the 750 kg. weight...and from what I've read in the past, the DBA weighs close to the 750 kg. weight....

so both would actually be about as quick as they are now....

So I really don't buy the argument that GTs will be faster than the LMP2s...especially when you factor in various aero factors that will make the prototypes much quicker through turns and tighter sections of the race tracks...

[SALEEN S7R]

I guess we will have to wait and see then Tim, but lets not forget as of 2004 the factory Courage C65's wont be racing - they will be in privateer hands, therefore the teams probably wont have acess to top line drivers, and the big recources of the Courage factory so the cars may well be slower than we have seen them this year. Also when Jorg Bergmeister tested the 2004 spec Porsche 911 GT3 RS I think he was saying that the car has the potential to be around 2.0-3.0 secs a lap faster next year than this years Porsches. Still even if the GT cars wont be faster, the GTS cars probably will be.

The air restrictor regulations affected the GTS cars more than the LMP cars this year I think, and Darren turner said the cars were around 8-10mph slower on the Mulsanne compared to 2002, well next year the regulations are back to the 2002 spec regulations, and the new LMP 2 cars are penalised. Sure the current ones arent, until 2005 that is but from 2005 onwards every LMP 2 class car will have to weight 750kg, the current GTS cars are almost as fast as the top LMP 675 cars now, when they weight 750kg the GTS cars will certainly be faster. BTW Tim I dont agree with u regarding the LMP cars being a lot better areodynamically, the new GTS cars coming are going to be producing similar levels of downforce as LMP cars do, ie the new Maserati and Murceilago and the Ferrari 575 and Saleen S7R. Lets not forget the Saleen S7R has been penalised after its debut year of 2001 when it set lap times of 3:52, now had it been able to run in 2002 without them it could have gone into the 3:49's at least Id imagine. So if the car is capable of that, just think what the Factory Maseratis can do.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
...the teams probably wont have acess to top line drivers, and the big recources of the Courage factory...

I've heard quite the opposite about GTS this year compared to last - that in fact they weren't slower at all (and conspiracy-theorists suggest this is part of the reason that the radar guns weren't on the Mulsanne this year).

If you look at qualifying results:

2003

DBA #26 3.44.333
Lola #27 3.46.404
Courage #31 3.51.550

Ferrari #88 3.53.278
Ferrari #80 3.54.725
Corvette #50 3.55.613

Porsche #93 4.06.984
Porsche #81 4.07.028
Porsche #87 4.08.913

2002

LOLA #27 3:33.254
LOLA #26 3:36.694
LOLA #30 3:42.441

FERRARI #58 3:54.091
CORVETTE #63 3:54.903
VIPER #50 3:57.116

PORSCHE #81 4:10.803
PORSCHE #80 4:12.698
PORSCHE #82 4:12.908

Note that GT got 4 seconds faster from 2002 to 2003; GTS got about 1 second faster; LMP675 got 10 seconds slower.

When an LMP car switches from 675 to LMP2, they get the 2002 restrictors back. You don't think that will more than compensate for the additional weight, such as it is? Remember, the DBA has been running close to 750 all along, so a design along its lines isn't going to be penalized much by the extra weight.

[SALEEN S7R]

Okay point taken. But as I said "Darren turner said the cars were around 8-10mph slower on the Mulsanne compared to 2002" I never said the cars were slower over a entire lap. Still I stand by what I say GTS cars such as the Prodrive Ferrari 550 will be lapping in around the 3:47-3:48 bracket next year. And when the Maseratis enter in 2005 they will be even faster. Now if only the FACTORY Saleen Speedlab team turns up with the S7R 2 years on from 2001 theyd be lapping in the 3:47s next year at least, providing of course the ballast and restrictors were the same as everyone else in GTS. I think we could well see a GTS car in the top 6 next year with a little bit of luck. The LMP 900 grids dont look so strong at the moment, and a few of the cars there are a bit frail compared to the Prodrive/Care Racing Ferrari 550s which are now a proven race car, finishing 2nd in the Spa 24hrs, Class winners in PLM and 5th overall, Class winners at LM and class winners of course in the LM 1000KM and a top 6 finish.

BTW the LMP 675 times, yes the lap times are 10 secs a lap slower, but I wonder how much that has to do with the Factory MG's not being in the class this year and instead, privateer MG's and the DBA , and the fact that the Factory MG drivers are a lot quicker than any in the privateer MG's and DBA. Had the factory MG Lola's raced again this year I doubt they would have been 10 secs a lap slower than they were in 2002. Perhaps 6 secs a lap slower at a push.

[jhansen]

I'm confused as to what the point of your posts are Saleen. You seem mighty determined to talk down the LMP 675's and LMP2's while talking up the GTS cars and upper level GT's. Am I missing something?

[Fogelhund]

Just as a note to this discussion. There is much more to qualifying to be in LMP2, then to be weighing more then 750kg. Carbon fibre tubs will not be allowed.

As it stands much is determined by the quality of the entrants. One must not forget that DBR ran LMP675 cars that would be equivalent of LMP2's, and ran much quicker then GT's would.

[paul-collins]

Nah, that's pretty much his point.

Aside from when he's talking down the ALMS production ranks and talking up the FIA-GT ranks.

[Fogelhund]

Wasn't it just a year ago young Mr. Saleen was slagging FIA GT?