UK Formula Fords

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by Redracer77

The new series has to run on ACB10's as the problem with Zetec's is the slicks reduce the amount of overtaking....

And new slick tyres are worth about a second a lap for about 10 laps and if you can afford to set the car up on new tyres about 2 seconds !

So no slicks please! no cast iron manifolds, no alloy brakes, no £3K+ dampers - so FF1600 rules please

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by 56Supporter

I strongly disagree with that as the national championship is meant to be a feeder catergory for drivers to progress through the ranks and to develop there skills further and is a ideal opportunity to start to learn about the slick tyre.

Also there is already plenty of overtaking!!!

What is more important - learning race craft or slick tyres? IMO a good driver can pick up how to get the best out of a slick tyre very quickly but how long does it take to learn race craft????

Why would just changing the engine make people come back?

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by 56Supporter

I strongly disagree with that as the national championship is meant to be a feeder catergory for drivers to progress through the ranks and to develop there skills further and is a ideal opportunity to start to learn about the slick tyre.

Also there is already plenty of overtaking!!!

Then imagine what it would be like with a more user friendly tyre!!! Back to the good old days!!

The price of slicks and ACB 10's is roughly the same price and all of the top clubman always seem to have a new set of rubber for each round anyway so I can't see any difference?

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by 56Supporter

The price of slicks and ACB 10's is roughly the same price and all of the top clubman always seem to have a new set of rubber for each round anyway so I can't see any difference?

But ACB10's last a lot longer (unless you use as many as your brother!!)

Racecraft is obviously more important but you can learn that from the championship using slicks as has been proven already in the zetec championship

Point taken but as I said earlier, most of the top club boys run a new set every meeting anyway

[Walshy]

Stick to the FF1600 rules as stated.

The purpose of the new engine is one of reliability and cost.

The Kent is a good engine, but it does need a lot of TLC. The Zetec's could spend 2 seasons in the back of a car before you even had to look at it. And then it would appear fine.

I'm all for the engine change if they make it like the 1700cc Formula Renault engine. When it goes pop, you take it out, hand it back to Renault and they give you a new replacement for £700.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by 56Supporter

Point taken but as I said earlier, most of the top club boys run a new set every meeting anyway

Maybe that is why Zetecs are in trouble. FF1600 is a good role model for success.

In the old days we had the same rules in regional as natioanl and the regional boys (and girls) came out to join the nationals to give massive grids when they where in town. We need to get back to that.

Which means new 1600 engine, ACB10's, new cars and nearly 200 cars that COULD race. Have the standard kent as Class B and anyone who wants to pay the money for a new engine in Class A.......

simple

Big grids, great racing, strong regional championships and ONLY ONE national championship (NOT MSV and KOK)

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by 56Supporter

The price of slicks and ACB 10's is roughly the same price and all of the top clubman always seem to have a new set of rubber for each round anyway so I can't see any difference?

Having raced on both I can tell you there is little drop off with the ACB10s. Scrub them right, store them right and you can get run them till they nearly bald. To be on the pace in FFZetec you got to have the maximum allowed tyres. 1 set from national and 1/2 for clubmans. There is a massive drop off, you really only use them once.

Don't believe me ? See how the club drivers are fighting over the tyre rules

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sffcdrivers/

No i dont disagree, i just think that it helps drivers going up through the ranks get used to how slicks work.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by 56Supporter

No i dont disagree, i just think that it helps drivers going up through the ranks get used to how slicks work.

The main difference between FF1600 & FFZetec is power, then it's brakes

Felt so slow exiting the slow corners like Graham Hill

Could check the corner speeds with my PI data bet there isn't much difference.

[foreversideways]

You have to have regs which allow club guys and national guys to compete in the races together as the national championship moves around the country. Most local racers will compete in a national round at their home circuit given the chance (32 cars at Oulton Park for MSV FF1600 round) to compare themselves with the best. This automatically boosts the grids, provides good racing right through the field and heaven forbid if it got really popular, we might get back to heats. Keep it simple, new engine :able to retrofit :no exotic stuff : and no slicks. Tyres with treads didn't really hinder the careers of. Ayrton Senna:Nigel Mansell:Emerson Fittipaldi erek Warwick:James Hunt:. I could go on .Finally how many times do you here people say that the FF1600 race was the best race of the day.

[Bagodonuts]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

I totally agree with the quality vs quantity issue – I think I remember Senna dicing with M. Brundle at some stage in F3?? However, I maintain that the Formula Ford grid this year has not got any sort of quality in depth. I think looking at qualifying and lap times demonstrates this (look how close the times are compared with last year).

And totally agree that the leader in the championship is a quality product – but I think this was also demonstrated last year when he was up with the leaders (yes I did look at the results), is it any surprise that he’s winning this year and what does it prove?

I don’t think I’ve ever suggested that BMW is a better product, but FF needs to reinvent itself as there appears to be more appealing products out there for young drivers at the moment. Unlike me, journalists usually have other motives for some of their comments.

There’s obviously a lot of money at stake, but I maintain that running 8 cars around Thruxton (with drivers of varying ability) and claiming that this represents the top level of UK junior motorsport is simply not good news for all involved.

I've noticed quite a difference in lap times as well, I think it was more so at Thruxton as I don't beleive there was any testing just straight into qualifying which... anyone who knows Thruxton will likely agree its getting on it instantly.

With Senna's year, not only did he have a cracking battle with Brundle eventually winning the title... but at several of the races grids were no bigger than 9-12 cars... my point being he was expected to win and the depth of the championship didn't take anything away from his brilliance, nor did it take away from British F3 being a solid breeding ground for young drivers.

FF needs to do something to promote growth but the formula they have is a good one. Changing the car around by adding wings, etc. would take away from the great training tool it is for young drivers. They need to come up with a solution to attract drivers and sponsors but keep it so that the end budgets and the cost per mile comes in way under BMW or Renault to run (which it already does). I sometimes wish there wasn't soo much political BS with journalists, etc. as it clouts peoples opinions about a formula (like BMW).

I strongly feel if you were to take another 10-15 cars and add them to this years championship the pace of the 2 drivers currently winning is good enough for any year and they would still be winning. So essentially the other 10-15 cars all become filler, that's the way it is in Renault and many other series as a driver who usually runs 15 is not magically going to put it on pole and win. There are many rookie drivers this year and it is safe to say they are just paying there dues. Unfortunately this year for FF is a holding year in which grid numbers are not what they should be but writing it off and just sweeping it under the carpet as a championship, is simply unacceptable.

[Bagodonuts]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Can we please tone down the language and try to behave like adults. By all means make your point but please do it without resorting to posts like this.

I shall retard the frustration and language, was just trying to wake said party into a different point of view... i.e. look outside the box to see things in a different light. Did come out harsh and I apologize to all

[Athgoe Racing]

The new 1600 engine is being tested in austraila on Zetec reg's but with ACB10's for Ford.

Foreversideways you are talking about Champions of the past. I am not disagreeing that FF1600 racing is very good racing as had an exciting time watching countless FF1600 races over the last few years and I have never seen such close racing. The point I am trying to make is that these days drivers that are going up through the ranks are being pushed to do so at a much earlier age (something that I do not agree with) so I think that it is important that a driver gets used to slicks as soon as possible. If a driver does well from the national championship then what is the next step from there, Renaults or even F3. It may then take them a good part of the season getting used to slicks (as well as wings ) where as the lads coming from FBMW will already have this advantage.

At the end of the day I want the championship to succeed just as much as anyone so if it that means having rules and regs to suit everyone then so be it but I just think that we need to prepare FF lads as much as possible for there future championships. It was nice to see Charlie Kimball win at Thruxton last weekend having come up through the FF championship.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by 56Supporter

Foreversideways you are talking about Champions of the past. I am not disagreeing that FF1600 racing is very good racing as had an exciting time watching countless FF1600 races over the last few years and I have never seen such close racing. The point I am trying to make is that these days drivers that are going up through the ranks are being pushed to do so at a much earlier age (something that I do not agree with) so I think that it is important that a driver gets used to slicks as soon as possible. If a driver does well from the national championship then what is the next step from there, Renaults or even F3. It may then take them a good part of the season getting used to slicks (as well as wings ) where as the lads coming from FBMW will already have this advantage.

At the end of the day I want the championship to succeed just as much as anyone so if it that means having rules and regs to suit everyone then so be it but I just think that we need to prepare FF lads as much as possible for there future championships. It was nice to see Charlie Kimball win at Thruxton last weekend having come up through the FF championship.

I understand your point but in that case why not give them wings then as they will need to get used to those....oh and why not give them 500 bhp as they will need to get used to that...and then maybe make it a world championship as they will need to learn the GP circuits.....

FF1600/zetec is the bottom of the ladder and basics is where they need to be. They have to offer something different to Renault/BMW. The main thing will be costs. make seasons cheaper than £50k make the cars interesting to drive (ie ACB10 tyres and not slicks) and give them a little bit more power than a kent 1600. Maybe 130bhp.

They can then go in to either Renault or F3. As you said Charlie did well last weekend so it shows that FF teaches a driver well. There is so much competition out there these days and not many people with money. To be honest if youcan't afford to do zetecs/1600 you may as well give up now as it will only get more expensive ......

[Triple J Motorsport]

Another point is it is the only multi chassis class on the way to F1 except F3 which is nearly all Dallara anyway. This helps designers engineers and drivers.

You won't learn as much about setting a car up jumping into a Renault or BMW that has been the same for ex number of years, as the team will know exactly how to set it up. If FF takes off again there will be new cars every year from about 4 manufactures. Look at the changes in design in the past RF84 to RF85 or RF89 to RF90 or the Swifts and Rays of the early 1990s the last real hayday of National FF.

[Walshy]

Originally Posted by RayFF

Another point is it is the only multi chassis class on the way to F1 except F3 which is nearly all Dallara anyway. This helps designers engineers and drivers.

You won't learn as much about setting a car up jumping into a Renault or BMW that has been the same for ex number of years, as the team will know exactly how to set it up. If FF takes off again there will be new cars every year from about 4 manufactures. Look at the changes in design in the past RF84 to RF85 or RF89 to RF90 or the Swifts and Rays of the early 1990s the last real hayday of National FF.

Very very very good point.

[Mackmot]

56, drivers need to learn in a low grip car because it allows them to feel a lack of grip earlier in the traction circle. This gives them more time to react to it and tune their senses. Sending kids out in a high grip car just makes them learn that if they push too hard they go off.

FF also has a massive advantage over FBMW and Renault for the reasons that RayFF says. The kids get to learn what to do to make their car go faster.

FF also has the advantage because at this level of motorsport even if we go back to decent FF of a couple of years ago. Spending £100k+ to do lots of testing and learning to drive properly at this stage is a hell of a lot cheaper than spending £400k per year in F3 to catch up. Although I think even that is moving up a level and driver are now having to catch up at GP2/World Series stage.

Unfortunately we will not see this happen now because drivers arent competitive anymore (Thanks to the Labour party attitude of everyone's a winner), This makes racing boring so more kids dont get interested. So the kids that are interested and only want to have a go because its cool, find the FF a non aesthetically pleasing 60s cars. And the organisers and old school boys dont wanna change that. And Ford dont want to fund anything and when they do put a bit in the organisers absorb the money. So the championship spirals closer to non existance by the day.