ALMS Round 6: Road America

[Maelochs]

"Would you rather watch a race finish under green (Grand-Am) or under yellow (ALMS)?"

This just complete crap designed to stir up more pointless animosity between the fans. Both races had their merits, and the finish of each was Not in any way related to the fact that a car crashed and the race ended under yellow or didn't.

As for Muscle Milk dominating ... yeah, how upset were you when Telmex Ganassi dominated for five seasons? The best-prepared team with the best drivers tends to win. We All know it, so why even discuss it?

Why even bother with comparing the two series to find the better and worse points of each, unless it is to help USCR be better? And complaining about Muscle Milk in 2013 is pointless because it is a product of the decline of the class and the series.

yeah, we all would have liked to see a one- or two-lap shootout instead of a full-course caution, but in all your nitpicking and complaining you missed the One Thing which the new series could do differently which would really improve the racing: Use Local Yellow and Let the Teams Race.

It has nothing to do with Rolex versus ALMS---both series tend to take too long to resolve yellow-flag situations, and neither seems to know what a local yellow flag is.

I hope USCR management thinks about this.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Articus

I hope they expand to two cars because that's part of why they are struggling.

How is running only one car contributing to their struggles? Risi this year has had tough luck but their drivers haven't been the best either.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Salamus

How is running only one car contributing to their struggles? Risi this year has had tough luck but their drivers haven't been the best either.

Well when one car has a bad day...The whole team has a bad day.
They cannot split strategies like everyone else.
They just didn't have the pace in the dry as Malucelli said despite testing here a week ago...
And with a second car we might see better drivers or atleast different ones.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

But they are not the only Ferrari on the grid, the other isn't tied to Ferrari in any way, doesn't use full time pro drivers, and also uses a tire with poor development and on no other gtlm car.and yet that other team has had better results and only one bad hit than risi.

[David Land]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

That's completely not the point.

Would you rather watch a race finish under green (Grand-Am) or under yellow (ALMS)?

I don't have any problem with a race finishing under yellow for the sake of safety.

Just don't tell me it's exciting.

Andy Flinn

So because the Grand Am race by chance finished under green, that makes it better than the ALMS?

Logic is really failing there, especially because both races were officiated by the same people.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

I'm shocked a Chrysler product was able to make it up a steep hill at caution pace, if only my Sebring had the same luck.

Good race, well except P1 which was shown for all of 15 Minutes all day on the telecast. Glad to see FIAT get their first win, and at Road America no less. Talk about an awesome circuit.

Somebody needs to air that GT3 Cup race.

[The Badger]

Im not surprised at all about a Viper win , it was only a matter of time with Bill Reily involved . This is in effect basically a Reily run team .

Im delighted for them

[Brownj]

I really enjoyed the race, as always. Great to see Viper notch a win. I think we would've seen a Viper win whether there was a yellow at the end or not, because the #93 was good on fuel, and I'm not so sure everyone else in front of them was.

Also good job to McMurry/Burgess in the Dyson car for finishing 2nd and on the lead lap. Happy though that we will see Dyson and Smith back in the car for Baltimore. And another side note... a PC car gets on the overall podium again.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Im not surprised at all about a Viper win , it was only a matter of time with Bill Reily involved . This is in effect basically a Reily run team .

Im delighted for them

I saw Bill gather the troops after Thursday night practice at last year's PLM and give a pep talk while discussing what went right and what went wrong. He appeared to me to be a highly professional motivator while also being a great engineer.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

I saw Bill gather the troops after Thursday night practice at last year's PLM and give a pep talk while discussing what went right and what went wrong. He appeared to me to be a highly professional motivator while also being a great engineer.

Yes , that's the impression I got when I was chatting to him . I had the pleasure of meeting him at Le Mans in 2003 , I met both Goossens and Reily at Tetre Rouge when their R&S MK.III coasted to a halt in qualifying , and had a chat with them both ..... he promised me a job if they won , sadly ............ and a Gentleman , both of them are .

Absolutly delighted for Reily/SRT , well deserved .

Any news on if any chassis will end up in Europe . I hope Larbre will run them as they had very successful seasons with Vipers before .

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by David Land

So because the Grand Am race by chance finished under green, that makes it better than the ALMS?

Logic is really failing there, especially because both races were officiated by the same people.

Uh, yes.

A race that finishes under green is usually better than one that concludes under yellow.

Saturday's race was a classic example.

Case in point, on Saturday Long in the Porsche CHASED Auberlen in the BMW all the way to the checker before the BMW ran out of gas. On Saturday the Corvette FOLLOWED the Viper to the checker in yellow flag formation.

I don't understand how that defies logic for you. It doesn't take a genius to figure out which was the better race.

Please explain, if you can, how the ALMS race was better.

Andy Flinn

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

ALMS LMP1 is ALMS GT1 all over again - simply too expensive.

Andy Flinn

I don't know why this same tired old argument gets tossed around, other than to stir the pot. I can only conclude it to be obtuse when the LMP1 Champion from two years ago spent less than the (Series subsidized) DP champion. Both spent less than Indycar entrants, and significantly less than NASCAR entrants.

It would be factual to suggest that the ROI in both series is pitiful at the moment, and not capable of sustaining meaningful advertising/marketing.

---------------------------------------

As far as the races are concerned, I watched both in parts. Neither was incredibly compelling, but the GTE cars in the ALMS made it at least somewhat interesting. I would far prefer a Green finish over yellow, but that doesn't change that the ALMS race at least had some more interesting cars in it, to me.

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Re; Comments about Muscle Milk..

They are a pretty high quality squad IMO. They've come close on pace to the Rebellion Lola's than anybody in Europe did this year, the HPD just isn't that quick.

[jasonjessica09]

Thoughts on race:

1. Another race ruined by full course yellows. Its a 4 mile track! Use local yellows even for crashes and cars in sand. BY FAR AND AWAY the thing about ALMS I hate the most!!!! I watched the race on replay and finished it after an hour and half after skipping yellows and silly interview segments.


2. Very plesed to see the SRT Viper win. For a while I thought it would be the 93 car but the 91 seems to be more consistent as the race goes on. I am cheering for Porsche and Ferarri to win in the remaining races because they have not won a race yet. GTLM was the only thing worth watching in this race again.

3. Utterly shocked the DW did as well as it did. I still dont think that car belongs in sportscar racing. I dont consider it a P1 car, just unclassified. I'm glad it won't be at Balitmore. I hate that car.

4. It would nice if the TV coverage showed the overall running order too in their scroll instead of just classes.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Uh, yes.

A race that finishes under green is usually better than one that concludes under yellow.

Saturday's race was a classic example.

Case in point, on Saturday Long in the Porsche CHASED Auberlen in the BMW all the way to the checker before the BMW ran out of gas. On Saturday the Corvette FOLLOWED the Viper to the checker in yellow flag formation.

I don't understand how that defies logic foe you. And you don't need to be a genius to know which was the better race.

Please explain, if you can, how the ALMS race was better.

Andy Flinn

The race is more than the last 10 minutes. It lasted for 2 hours and 45 minutes so that means cars were racing for much longer than 10 minutes. The race ending under yellow was a letdown, but that doesn't mean that the other 2 hours and 35 minutes of competition wasn't good. ALMS doesn't have to do much to put on a better race (notice I didn't say show, as this isn't a NASCAR-affiliated series) than Grand-Am.

The wet start was great. Cars were jumbled up and somehow the Delta Wing actually led the race! Then when the track started drying strategy came into play.

The biggest thing: people passed each other without hitting and wrecking every time.

[canciaro]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

Thoughts on race:

1. Another race ruined by full course yellows. Its a 4 mile track! Use local yellows even for crashes and cars in sand. BY FAR AND AWAY the thing about ALMS I hate the most!!!! I watched the race on replay and finished it after an hour and half after skipping yellows and silly interview segments.


2. Very plesed to see the SRT Viper win. For a while I thought it would be the 93 car but the 91 seems to be more consistent as the race goes on. I am cheering for Porsche and Ferarri to win in the remaining races because they have not won a race yet. GTLM was the only thing worth watching in this race again.

3. Utterly shocked the DW did as well as it did. I still dont think that car belongs in sportscar racing. I dont consider it a P1 car, just unclassified. I'm glad it won't be at Balitmore. I hate that car.

4. It would nice if the TV coverage showed the overall running order too in their scroll instead of just classes.

+4 Agree on all your points, I didnt really think about the overall order until I watched some of the old ALMS races when NBC and Speed used to do them and I noticed that. Definitely makes sense when you only have 2 P1 cars and a mix of pretty quick P2 and PC cars.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Well if you could read, you would see that I pointed out that the GAGT guys have been saying for a long time that at the end of straights they are faster than GTE cars. Road America is a track with a lot of long straights.

On an unrelated note, is there a way to ignore or block someone's posts?

My GTC car is faster than most of the GT cars at the end of the 3 main straights (and the Rolex GT cars have more power and less drag than GTC), that doesn't mean we'll turn a faster lap time.

-mike

[jasonjessica09]

Mr. Hedlund as a driver what do you think of the problem with long full course yellows? As well as the prude reasons for them. A car stuck in the sand trap on a 4 mile circuit should not bring a FCY out at all. Is it something that has been talked about by ALMS officials? Drivers/Teams ? It is killing the show for the spectors.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I don't know why this same tired old argument gets tossed around, other than to stir the pot. I can only conclude it to be obtuse when the LMP1 Champion from two years ago spent less than the (Series subsidized) DP champion. Both spent less than Indycar entrants, and significantly less than NASCAR entrants.

It would be factual to suggest that the ROI in both series is pitiful at the moment, and not capable of sustaining meaningful advertising/marketing.

---------------------------------------

As far as the races are concerned, I watched both in parts. Neither was incredibly compelling, but the GTE cars in the ALMS made it at least somewhat interesting. I would far prefer a Green finish over yellow, but that doesn't change that the ALMS race at least had some more interesting cars in it, to me.

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Re; Comments about Muscle Milk..

They are a pretty high quality squad IMO. They've come close on pace to the Rebellion Lola's than anybody in Europe did this year, the HPD just isn't that quick.

Fogelhund, the levels of participation (14 DP's versus 3 LMP1's) indicates that your cost and ROI numbers are simply not accurate.

Would you care to share the sources of your figures or would you rather continue to blame LMP1's unsustainability on the Evil Empire (NASCAR)?

Andy Flinn

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Fogelhund, the levels of participation (14 DP's versus 3 LMP1's) indicates that your cost and ROI numbers are simply not accurate.

Would you care to share the sources of your figures or would you rather continue to blame LMP1's unsustainability on the Evil Empire (NASCAR)?

Andy Flinn

A bunch of the dp teams are funded by the series itself.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

Mr. Hedlund as a driver what do you think of the problem with long full course yellows? As well as the prude reasons for them. A car stuck in the sand trap on a 4 mile circuit should not bring a FCY out at all. Is it something that has been talked about by ALMS officials? Drivers/Teams ? It is killing the show for the spectors.

I wish they could get them done faster, but because it's multi-class racing they *must* get the field in order first. Otherwise, at every caution you risk going a lap down to your own class leader based SOLEY on where and who the safety car decides to pickup first.

As for why they actually decide to go FCY, well.. I think in the ALMS races it's always for safety. In Europe they'll do a local caution and send the marshalls out into a gravel trap w/ some equipment to get the car back on track. That doesn't seem to happen here in the states (and I don't really blame them, you couldn't pay me enough to be a marshall and go out there to do that! have you seen some of these "professional" drivers? lol!).

It's a crappy problem.. but I haven't heard of a better solution or spent much time trying to come up with one myself.

-mike

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I wish they could get them done faster, but because it's multi-class racing they *must* get the field in order first. Otherwise, at every caution you risk going a lap down to your own class leader based SOLEY on where and who the safety car decides to pickup first.

As for why they actually decide to go FCY, well.. I think in the ALMS races it's always for safety. In Europe they'll do a local caution and send the marshalls out into a gravel trap w/ some equipment to get the car back on track. That doesn't seem to happen here in the states (and I don't really blame them, you couldn't pay me enough to be a marshall and go out there to do that! have you seen some of these "professional" drivers? lol!).

It's a crappy problem.. but I haven't heard of a better solution or spent much time trying to come up with one myself.

-mike

No worries Mike, with more and more of those folks you´ll get used to it pretty quickly!

Do you have plans to do the Dubai or Nurburgring 24H next year? Both races have their own ´non-safety car-FCY´; in Dubai they use the Code 60 system (every car slows down to 60kph, no safety car, no passing, gaps stay the same, racing is resumed as soon as green flag is shown, no need to wait till start/finish line) while at the Ring they use something what is best described as ´local FCY´ (yeah, I know, that sounds rather confusing...) i.e. double waved yellow at the turn where the incident occurred (car in the gravel trap for instance), preceded by a single waving at the previous turn and a single stationary yellow flag at the turn before that. No passing obviously and cars need to slow down to - again - 60 kph. In both cases GPS is used to monitor speeds and observe violations.

Btw, what happened to your car at the end, throttle stuck open? Haven´t seen a replay of the crash but it looked nasty! Hope Jan is allright.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

No worries Mike, with more and more of those folks you´ll get used to it pretty quickly!

Do you have plans to do the Dubai or Nurburgring 24H next year? Both races have their own ´non-safety car-FCY´; in Dubai they use the Code 60 system (every car slows down to 60kph, no safety car, no passing, gaps stay the same, racing is resumed as soon as green flag is shown, no need to wait till start/finish line) while at the Ring they use something what is best described as ´local FCY´ (yeah, I know, that sounds rather confusing...) i.e. double waved yellow at the turn where the incident occurred (car in the gravel trap for instance), preceded by a single waving at the previous turn and a single stationary yellow flag at the turn before that. No passing obviously and cars need to slow down to - again - 60 kph. In both cases GPS is used to monitor speeds and observe violations.

Btw, what happened to your car at the end, throttle stuck open? Haven´t seen a replay of the crash but it looked nasty! Hope Jan is allright.

Next year, if I'm not full-time in USCR I plan to do most of the big endurance GT races around the world. Bathurst 12H, Dubai, Spa 24H, and N24. Of course planning is one thing and actually doing it is another! Lol.

I see ways to abuse the code 60 system, but I haven't experienced it first hand to know exactly how it works and if it's better/worse than our FCY system here in the states.

As for the end of the ALMS race yesterday, the initial cause looks to be a burst front right brake line. Jan is fine, just a little sore. :-)

-mike

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Fogelhund, the levels of participation (14 DP's versus 3 LMP1's) indicates that your cost and ROI numbers are simply not accurate.

Would you care to share the sources of your figures or would you rather continue to blame LMP1's unsustainability on the Evil Empire (NASCAR)?

Andy Flinn

No, the levels of participation indicate subsidies in one series, and none in the other. Please show where ONCE I've ever blamed anything ALMS related on NASCAR. The ALMS Management team really hasn't need any outside interference to screw things up.

The sources, team owners, and team managers. You may recall the articles in Last Turn Club on costs.... Ganassi is spending close to $4 mil, GAINSCO just over $3 mil, Dyson just under $3 mil, though Muscle Milk is more like $6-7 mil.

It is never purely about price, rather what you get for it, but you should know that by now.

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

Thoughts on race:

4. It would nice if the TV coverage showed the overall running order too in their scroll instead of just classes.

I like how on most European brodcasts ive seen they show a run down of the overall before the commercial break. Lost of time with a picture of the car beside its order. Think it would really help the casual fans aswell.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

No, the levels of participation indicate subsidies in one series, and none in the other. Please show where ONCE I've ever blamed anything ALMS related on NASCAR. The ALMS Management team really hasn't need any outside interference to screw things up.

The sources, team owners, and team managers. You may recall the articles in Last Turn Club on costs.... Ganassi is spending close to $4 mil, GAINSCO just over $3 mil, Dyson just under $3 mil, though Muscle Milk is more like $6-7 mil.

It is never purely about price, rather what you get for it, but you should know that by now.

I do recall those articles. They were written by an ALMS partisan, so not a credible source. I also recall that those articles intentionally left all of the factory LMP1 and LMP2 teams (Audi, Penske Porsche, HPD Highcroft) out of the comparison and, therefore, rendered the entire exercise pointless.

Fogelhund, when I say source I mean something credible (SPEED, AutoWeek, etc.). Not some frustrated blogger with a homemade website. I'm talking about verifiable facts and figures provided by a trusted source - not gossip, rumor and unsubstantiated innuendo.

Your same "source" for those articles also predicted years ago that Ganassi and Gainsco were leaving the Grand-Am series, and that NASCAR planned to shut down the whole Grand-Am operation.

Andy Flinn