[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Biggest event based upon what? Attendance? .

Most important race to win . Biggest bragging rights , worldover . Possibily it isnt viewed like this in the States , as ye have few manufacturers and very little idea of heritage .

Get this ..... Le Mans is the biggest race in the world ..... get over it !!!

Ask the manufacturers dude .....

[Acid09]

I agree, for manufacturers it's definitely the most important race as there's little connection to car manufacturers at Indy... they have been spec chassis for many years anyways.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I agree with this. I think Sebring will be a WEC event in 2012 only afterwards the WEC will go to Austin or somewhere else. I have no idea why though as the WEC's only tie to the US market is via the ALMS and Sebring.

Yep.

The WEC reduces the importance of Le Mans, particularly to the manufacturers. It is now just another round to them and their accountants.

It could, I guess it just depends. Le Mans is a big race (I think the biggest race is the next F1 race on the schedule - how many recent Indy 500 winners and Le Mans champions would trade in their wins for just one F1 win? They may say otherwise, but I'm not fooled by that) and I think anyone with any knowledge of road racing will continue to think of it as being a big race regardless, but comparing the WEC to the IRL is interesting. The WEC goes on to cheese off existing fan bases and if the ACO waters down the technical formula in order to get more cars in the WEC, well, fans may not care as much about Le Mans. Whether the ACO wants the WEC to promote or alienate is up to them. They're not off to a good start. It may just be one person, but I have much less excitement about Le Mans right now than I had a few months ago.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

So, a LMP1 championship only... but what format? Well it's simple, you want entry to the WEC, and LM, you must enter cars into one of the regional championships. You want to enter four cars at LM, you must enter four cars at regional championships.

In the end, you've strengthened the regional championships, AND achieved your World Championship, in the only class that really matters, or anybody cares about, from the WEC perspective. The point is, either you stengthen the overall state of the sport, you do something neutral, or you weaken it. Find me someone who wants to argue that the ELMS and ALMS will be stronger now, with the inception of the WEC? Let's look beyond just LMP1 now.... what exactly happens should the ELMS and/or the ALMS fail to continue? In either case, what you end up with is a smaller market to sell cars. If the market shrinks too much, you end up with a situation where builders simply won't build the cars. Corvette goes away, LMP2 builders go away, and Ferrari becomes a question mark. The other point here, is that the future of the WEC in North America has to be tenuous at best. Where are they going to run in 2013? Austin, Homestead, Sears Point? The World Endurance Challenge has no visibility in North America anyway, and if it isn't run at Sebring, or in conjunction with the ALMS, the fan turnout is going to be very poor. The poor turnout will likely result in leaving North America shortly, as was the case for most last 20 years of the prior Group C, manufacturers etc...

Like I've stated, you can choose to strengthen things, or weaken them... this weakens the state of Sportscar racing, at least in the ACO format. The world has changed a great deal in the last two decades, since there was last a World Championship, and corporate boards are more fickle, and corporate sponsorship is very difficult now. While I fully endorse the idea of having one, I believe it should have been done to strengthen the sport as a whole, and this fails to achieve that. It isn't that I think they've made a bunch of errors, more that the whole concept is fatally flawed. They've built a really nice table, but cut the legs out from under it.


So yes, this should have been a LMP1 only championship, and really that is the only part of this series anybody cares about, or that the main press will pay any attention to. What else was there doesn't matter to anybody...

You bring up a lot of good points here. They seem all too logical. Like I said earlier, the ACO has unfortunately chosen alienation rather than promotion. But, hey, should we be surprised? Not really.

[AGD]

I just read an interesting quote from Luca di Montezemolo. I assume he knows a thing or two about selling cars and international racing.

“It's fine that F1 goes all over the world, but we must not exaggerate by going to race in deserts or where there is no culture for racing," di Montezemolo continued, referring to the poor attendance at rounds such as Korea, Turkey and Bahrain, “For years now, the calendar has missed a historic race like France, and now a legendary circuit like Spa is at risk - to be replaced with what? I don't know if Ecclestone really said there will only be five European races left, but I don't believe it.”

Apparently Luca isn't in favor of racing in front of camels either.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Sorry but the day Rebellion & Pescarolo can keep up with Audi & Peugeot is the day the equality has done horribly wrong.

This has nothing to do with diesel or petrol but budgets. Privateers will never have the same resources as the big works entries and they only manage to snatch wins from them if things go horribly wrong.

I disagree hugely.

I want to see an exciting show. I want to see a close race between multiple teams, not just the same old Peugeot-Audi show.

I'll freely admit that even if it was a level playing field, manufacturers may still continue to win because they have much more money and resources. But I'd just like to see multiple teams with at least a shot of victory. In recent years, you might as well as only had six cars in LMP1 with the three Peugeots and three Audis, because that's always who is going to win. I want to see a surprise, I want to see different results, not just the same Peugeot-Audi lamefest.

Look at what Henri Pescarolo was saying not too long ago - he found it hard to attract sponsors last year because they fail to understand exactly how his team can be that much slower than the diesel cars.

Privateers should still have a chance of winning - look at other forms of racing, like say, touring cars - there's manufacturers present but privateers still have the chance to win from time to time.

I saw a post in the ILMC 2012 WEC Entries thread about the announcement of JRM entering LMP1, saying how the "petrol class" should be so exciting now. I find that such a sad indictment of where sportscar racing is right now that we have to have this rubbish about an "unofficial petrol class" to find excitement in LMP1 because it's just a boring diesel lock out.

I know my views won't be popular on this. Don't get me wrong, I love sportscars. I just wish the ACO would grow some balls and bring back properly exciting racing where you've got more than just the same two old teams capable of winning. I understand that sportscars is about alternative fuels, etc, but motorsport is about producing an exciting show. I can't see how the same old Peugeot-Audi fest is going to help WEC. It is fine for loyal sportscar racing fans, but I cannot see how it is going to attract new fans or sponsors to the series.

Look at ALMS in recent years. You had LMP2 Porsches and Acuras regularly challenging LMP1 Audis for overall victory. That was exciting. Just a shame we won't see that sort of excitement on this side of the Atlantic because the FIA/ACO are too chicken to put on any sort of a good show.

It's just so frustrating for me as a fan. Why can't we get back to the good old days of lots of teams having a mathematical chance of victory at Le Mans? Before it used to be just that, and then it would be the survival of the fittest. Now in recent years it's been a case of if you haven't got a diesel, you haven't got a chance and you might as well not even bother turning up. I can understand why Rebellion looked at going to the ALMS rather than WEC - they're fed up of never having half a chance of even getting onto the podium, nevermind the top step.

As I say, I'll give WEC a year. If it's the same Peugeot/Audi borefest for yet another year, I personally am not interested, which hurts me to say that, but it's true. Let's get some proper racing back.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by TF110

300,000 people go to LeMans I heard, perhaps more. It's shown and known by everyone. It's THE biggest race of the year. If you think otherwise something is wrong. WEC hasn't begun, yet people go and write it off. Maybe these fortune tellers can predict who'll win LM as well?

A bit under 250 000 spectators; 244 xxx IIRC. But over-inflating numbers and looking at reality from a very specific POV is necessary to believe LM is the race of the year.

In fact it is the local F1 GP for countries who have one that is the event of the year (yeah in numbers too in most cases). It can even be the local international rally event. It would be Monaco in F1 if there was no coherent championship built around it. And in USA roughly a ton of events are more the "motorsport event of the year" than LM just because people have heard about it and have come to spectate it.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Félix

In fact it is the local F1 GP for countries who have one that is the event of the year (yeah in numbers too in most cases). It can even be the local international rally event. It would be Monaco in F1 if there was no coherent championship built around it. And in USA roughly a ton of events are more the "motorsport event of the year" than LM just because people have heard about it and have come to spectate it.

Sorry but that is nonsense, no single F1 race or rally event is more important than Le Mans.

I´m really puzzled we're seriously having this discussion, and in a sports car racing forum of all places.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Sorry but that is nonsense, no single F1 race or rally event is more important than Le Mans.

I´m really puzzled we're seriously having this discussion, and in a sports car racing forum of all places.

I think for someone who is a rally fan first and foremost the Montecarlo Rally is much more important than LM.

And just going by media coverage, every F1-GP blows LM completely out of the water.

[Tim the Grey]

Sad, but true.
I thought the crowd rankings went Indy 500, LM24, some GP or other...
All overrun by the crowds at bike events!

[Fogelhund]

More evidence of the damage that the WEC is doing in it's current format to the ALMS and LMES, will be announced at 9:00 GMT tomorrow.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

More evidence of the damage that the WEC is doing in it's current format to the ALMS and LMES, will be announced at 9:00 GMT tomorrow.

So is Genoa moving to WEC P2 or what? Or Core? Someone else? Or am I way off?

[Marcel ten Caat]

Not that far off...

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Félix

A bit under 250 000 spectators; 244 xxx IIRC. But over-inflating numbers and looking at reality from a very specific POV is necessary to believe LM is the race of the year

Look , weather you believe Le Mans is the race of the year , or not , is completely irrelavant ..... F1 team owners have said it , F1 champions have said it , teams say it , and manufacturers know it ..... so you see , weather you take it or not , nobody really cares cuz its fact

So , to be quite honest , and no offence ment , all you people who disagree , are actually talking outta your hats . I listen to what team owners , drivers and so forth say , before I listen to a bunch of biggoted IMSA/ALMS people who are never happy unless they (1) run the show , and (2) havent got a decent sportscar series to talk about . Ive been to Le Mans over 25 times , for practice and the race ..... and know what Ive heard on RLM ..... ask Hindy , but you would probably disagree with his figures too!!!

A bit under 250 this year , has been 280 in the past ..... so , fiddleing the numbers , I dont think so .

If people dont like the ACO ..... vote with your feet .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I´m really puzzled we're seriously having this discussion, and in a sports car racing forum of all places.

So am I .

Shame on them . Their talking like a bunch of broken arse's !!!

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

So am I .

Shame on them . Their talking like a bunch of broken arse's !!!

Yeah, how dare people have perspective about the greater scheme of things!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

So am I .

Shame on them . Their talking like a bunch of broken arse's !!!

I see we've evolved to name calling now. Congrats.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

I disagree hugely.

I want to see an exciting show. I want to see a close race between multiple teams, not just the same old Peugeot-Audi show..................

Given the two latest manufactuers are enterting petrol cars, there's no need to a make the petrol/diesel distinction, any performance difference still in place after this winters adjustments (significant diesel restrictor reduction) should be addressed.

In the ALMS the Porsche and Acura's were competive, yes because the rules suited, but also because they were factory cars, few other P2's got a look in with Penske and co. on the grid. With regards to Pescarolo he's made some valid points in the past, but with the latest petrol factory cars and the customer HPD's and Lola-Toyota's, his current car(s) could be some way down the pack without upgrades, it shows it's not just factory disesls vs privateer petrols, there's a few levels inbetween.

Finally I think it's been forgotten the petrol Audi R8 was practically unbeatable, in some case the car was almost wreaked in the first hour, but it's performance advantage so great it could still win the race.

[Félix]

Wow, there really is nothing else worthy of discussion if we're gone that far down name-calling avenue.

I'll just say that I went to LM for the first time this year. I've been a sportscars racing fan for a long time and I expected to love being around all that for the first time. I've been to a Barcelona LMS race, to the Blancpain season opener and sadly the experience was comparable - only with a lot more spectators. But however you inflate the numbers you have to know they don't all go there to watch the race. Especially the Brits - I spent the week with them. Trying to have a discussion about the sport for more than a few sentences was hard.

The event this whole thing felt closest to for me was the Grand Prix de Trois-Rivières, where I've been several times. Long history, some kind of an aura, great access to the paddock and to the entrants (I once tried conversing with Gabriele Rafanelli back when I didn't quite speak English)... But the "sporting event" itself is old and tired. People go because they live nearby: it's a habit - like a festival, somewhere you go to meet your neighbours. Watching the "racing" closely doesn't really matter - drinking a beer is more what the event is for. To both regions, that's the "event of the year". In both cases, local or wealthy drivers buy rides (a second-rate stockcar or a 430 Ferrari, it's similar in the end).

OK Le Mans has that history of being the place where innovation for road cars would be tested and that gave victories there a value. But today the manufacturers who come (and will eventually go) do it with their marketing budget and don't care about racing because all that counts is how many tens of thousands of kilometers they clock alone on track before the race to then get the headline that says you won it. The rulemakers and these manufacturers don't care the least bit about the poorer entrants who do it for the sake of the sport even though it doesn't make sense financially. And they're getting rarer.

You get the picture. I once went to my first GPTR weekend as a hardcore fan (the ALMS was there). I took pictures, I observed a lot in the paddocks. It got boring to be able to predict winners before the start (even if they crashed at the first corner) and with time and later one day was enough. With YouTube and HD videos everywhere to satisfy my curiosity, I didn't get a lot more thrill when I was there. I was expecting Le Mans to be different, closer to F1's professionalism (not that I don't fall asleep watching F1 on TV) and as magical as you guys say it is. It wasn't. Once again, some impressive pro drivers lost in a sea of wealthy amateur$ who are there for other reasons than the one that should - to me- matter: being able to win it, or at the very least to achieve something.

[pach233]

Originally Posted by Félix

Wow, there really is nothing else worthy of discussion if we're gone that far down name-calling avenue.

I'll just say that I went to LM for the first time this year. I've been a sportscars racing fan for a long time and I expected to love being around all that for the first time. I've been to a Barcelona LMS race, to the Blancpain season opener and sadly the experience was comparable - only with a lot more spectators. But however you inflate the numbers you have to know they don't all go there to watch the race. Especially the Brits - I spent the week with them. Trying to have a discussion about the sport for more than a few sentences was hard.

The event this whole thing felt closest to for me was the Grand Prix de Trois-Rivières, where I've been several times. Long history, some kind of an aura, great access to the paddock and to the entrants (I once tried conversing with Gabriele Rafanelli back when I didn't quite speak English)... But the "sporting event" itself is old and tired. People go because they live nearby: it's a habit - like a festival, somewhere you go to meet your neighbours. Watching the "racing" closely doesn't really matter - drinking a beer is more what the event is for. To both regions, that's the "event of the year". In both cases, local or wealthy drivers buy rides (a second-rate stockcar or a 430 Ferrari, it's similar in the end).

OK Le Mans has that history of being the place where innovation for road cars would be tested and that gave victories there a value. But today the manufacturers who come (and will eventually go) do it with their marketing budget and don't care about racing because all that counts is how many tens of thousands of kilometers they clock alone on track before the race to then get the headline that says you won it. The rulemakers and these manufacturers don't care the least bit about the poorer entrants who do it for the sake of the sport even though it doesn't make sense financially. And they're getting rarer.

You get the picture. I once went to my first GPTR weekend as a hardcore fan (the ALMS was there). I took pictures, I observed a lot in the paddocks. It got boring to be able to predict winners before the start (even if they crashed at the first corner) and with time and later one day was enough. With YouTube and HD videos everywhere to satisfy my curiosity, I didn't get a lot more thrill when I was there. I was expecting Le Mans to be different, closer to F1's professionalism (not that I don't fall asleep watching F1 on TV) and as magical as you guys say it is. It wasn't. Once again, some impressive pro drivers lost in a sea of wealthy amateur$ who are there for other reasons than the one that should - to me- matter: being able to win it, or at the very least to achieve something.

Not to be offensive, but it sounds to me like you think you like sports car racing a lot more than you actually do.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

Yeah, how dare people have perspective about the greater scheme of things!

Everyone who posts must have such a perspective but that perspective seems to be very different depending on where you're from.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Everyone who posts must have such a perspective but that perspective seems to be very different depending on where you're from.

There are personal perspectives and their are more objective perspectives. Would an ACO racing fan think that Le Mans is the biggest race in the world? I'm guessing so. News at 11. Fortunately, we have more objective measures to determine truth.

Attendance is an objective measure in a way, but it has severe limitations. For example, 110,000 people may and do enthusiastically attend college football games at Michigan Stadium (AKA "The Big House.") Would a Ball State vs. Michigan game watched by 110,000 at The Big House be a bigger game than the Super Bowl with an attendance of maybe 70,000? For nearly everyone, the answer to that question would be no. There are a lot of factors at play when you consider attendance. Size of the facilities, entry prices, the amount of travel fans have do to get there, and so forth. Ball State vs. Michigan might get 110,000 in Michigan, but it may not even get 15,000 if played in New Mexico. Meanwhile, you could put the Super Bowl in Frogballs, Arkansas, and get 70,000. To that extent, local relevancy may be a factor. Some events are really, really popular amongst a group of people, but once you get beyond that group, the event may have no relevance at all.

Back to the ticket price thing, 81 home games for a baseball team with an average per game attendance of 36,000 may make less money than 8 home football games with an average attendance of 65,000. The difference is that the average baseball ticket might be $20 whereas the average football ticket might be something like $175. So on and so forth.

Television numbers and mainstream media coverage may be less conditional. With that in mind, I think it becomes obvious as to who puts on the biggest races. F1 races may not seem special because all their races are hugely popular. For example, the Bahrain part of winning an F1 race at Bahrain may not seem remarkable at all, but that win will get more attention than just about anything else in the racing world that isn't F1. Certainly there may be more people who dream of winning Le Mans or Indy than Bahrain F1, but that does not produce hard numbers.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by Félix

Wow, there really is nothing else worthy of discussion if we're gone that far down name-calling avenue.

I'll just say that I went to LM for the first time this year. I've been a sportscars racing fan for a long time and I expected to love being around all that for the first time. I've been to a Barcelona LMS race, to the Blancpain season opener and sadly the experience was comparable - only with a lot more spectators. But however you inflate the numbers you have to know they don't all go there to watch the race. Especially the Brits - I spent the week with them. Trying to have a discussion about the sport for more than a few sentences was hard.

The event this whole thing felt closest to for me was the Grand Prix de Trois-Rivières, where I've been several times. Long history, some kind of an aura, great access to the paddock and to the entrants (I once tried conversing with Gabriele Rafanelli back when I didn't quite speak English)... But the "sporting event" itself is old and tired. People go because they live nearby: it's a habit - like a festival, somewhere you go to meet your neighbours. Watching the "racing" closely doesn't really matter - drinking a beer is more what the event is for. To both regions, that's the "event of the year". In both cases, local or wealthy drivers buy rides (a second-rate stockcar or a 430 Ferrari, it's similar in the end).

OK Le Mans has that history of being the place where innovation for road cars would be tested and that gave victories there a value. But today the manufacturers who come (and will eventually go) do it with their marketing budget and don't care about racing because all that counts is how many tens of thousands of kilometers they clock alone on track before the race to then get the headline that says you won it. The rulemakers and these manufacturers don't care the least bit about the poorer entrants who do it for the sake of the sport even though it doesn't make sense financially. And they're getting rarer.

You get the picture. I once went to my first GPTR weekend as a hardcore fan (the ALMS was there). I took pictures, I observed a lot in the paddocks. It got boring to be able to predict winners before the start (even if they crashed at the first corner) and with time and later one day was enough. With YouTube and HD videos everywhere to satisfy my curiosity, I didn't get a lot more thrill when I was there. I was expecting Le Mans to be different, closer to F1's professionalism (not that I don't fall asleep watching F1 on TV) and as magical as you guys say it is. It wasn't. Once again, some impressive pro drivers lost in a sea of wealthy amateur$ who are there for other reasons than the one that should - to me- matter: being able to win it, or at the very least to achieve something.

To call the drivers 'amateurs' is to do them a disservice due to the rules giving them a name that doesn't apply to them.

I went to the Le Mans for the first time last year, and I have to say it was everything I expected and much more.

Did you explore the whole track? If you head down to Mulsanne for the sun rising on the Sunday, and watch the cars from inches away at Indianapolis/Arnage.

The access blows F1 out of the water, while it's not exactly open you can get amongst everything if you want. If you weren't delighted by a race that ended after 24 hours with two cars 13 seconds apart then I can't see how you can be a sportscar fan.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by wewantourdarbyback

I went to the Le Mans for the first time last year, and I have to say it was everything I expected and much more

I went to Le Mans for the first time in 1989 , it was everything I expected , and heaps more . I havent stopped going , and have now been there over 25 times , and will continue to go as there is nothing comes near ..... and it still surprises me each year .

[wolfhound]

Greaves have announced their line up in the WEC but no place for Tom Kimber- Smith in the WEC 0r LM24 hours but he will race in the LMS.
Elton Julian, Rcardo Gonzalez & Chrstian Zugel will do the driving.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96903

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I went to Le Mans for the first time in 1989 , it was everything I expected , and heaps more . I havent stopped going , and have now been there over 25 times , and will continue to go as there is nothing comes near ..... and it still surprises me each year .

By about the second day me and Simmi had said we were coming back every year.