F1 and its parting gift to sportscar racing

[Adam43]

Lets face it, you're all itching to pile in. So...
F1 dies*, is it the saving of sportscar racing**?

OK, more seriously, is there any change? Will a Honda*** come to Sportscar because it is cheaper? If they all came, is it cheaper? Or it is just an indication of what might happen in all motorsport? Sportscar teams are spending money too, will they have less?

*it isn't
**it doesn't need it
***that example isn't a straight swap at the moment, Acura, N. America, ...

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

*it isn't

I think the decision of Audi not to take part in ALMS and LMS shows we don't have to expect new manufacturers (except maybe Toyota) in prototype racing in the short term.

[isynge]

I very much fear I'm with Fire on this one.

Manufacturers will struggle to justify enormously expensive competition programmes - the exception perhaps being GT efforts where they can directly say they are creating a competition driven pedigree for a particular model. In F1 this has the potential to completely gut the field, in sportscar racing there is still at least a number of garagistes who will, I'm confident, be able to keep things going through the interregnum that may be coming.

Now, if this was 15 to 20 years ago you might be able to say that the small engineering shops who might have been tempted by F1 might come sportscar racing, but the world has so comprehensively changed that there aren't really outfits like that in F1 any more.

Ordinarily I'm an optimist, but I fear that F1's "parting gift" to motorsport overall is to taint it with a perception that it's colossally over expensive and an economic sinkhole...

[JAG]

I don't want F1 to die, and don't believe it will.

I do want F1 to return to 'privateer' teams with factory engine programs, I was an F1 fan for 15 years with that set-up, today I couldn't care less, despite budgets increasing ten fold.

Individuals circumstances aside, I'm hoping another F1 team or two collapses, I believe short term F1 job losses will be compensated by a healthier motorsport scene.

The USA, Canada, UK, France, Germany and China have either lost, or are on the verge of losing, traditional/important F1 events, in return for non-descript middle/far east events, than can't be right.

I almost feel sick when I hear Bernie and Max calling for teams to cut budgets, meanwhile they demand huge fee's to hold events.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

I almost feel sick when I hear Bernie and Max calling for teams to cut budgets, meanwhile they demand huge fee's to hold events.

Maybe Max's "sessions" are getting more expesive.

Canada should be happy they dont have an F1 race now. Save lots of money.

I dont think Honda should sell their team or the team slots. Just lease out those grid positions if they can for a few years.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by JAG

The USA, Canada, UK, France, Germany and China have either lost, or are on the verge of losing, traditional/important F1 events, in return for non-descript middle/far east events, than can't be right.

I almost feel sick when I hear Bernie and Max calling for teams to cut budgets, meanwhile they demand huge fee's to hold events.

China may be an important event in the sense of it having a huge population, but other than that how has the story of that venue been any different to going to middle eastern races? Surely China is a far eastern nation? Or is it just that we don't want arabian nations hosting GPs?

I don't think we can hold Max accountable for the race fee scenario. The extortion Bernie employs isn't Max's responsibility.

As far as the effect for sportscar racing goes, well, I don't see how the F1 scenario will have much impact. The teams leaving F1 are leaving because they can't justify the expense anymore. I would suggest this means they wouldn't want to go and spend a bunch of money on an LMP1 effort (it isn't like that comes cheap, or anything - cheaper, yes, but not cheap in itself). The pull-outs are inidicative of the overall global climate rather than purely F1 in and of itself, thus the sportscar world faces exactly the same issues as F1 irrespective of what F1's scenario is. F1 faces the fastest, and hardest, hit as a function of it being so massively expensive, but it isn't like it is going to be alone in feeling the pinch.

[isynge]

JAG I agree with a lot of your sentiment, and rather fear we'll see you get your wish to see a few more teams depart the scene.

I suppose we really should think about what will happen in a few years time when, one hopes, factories will look to return. In that light the ACO's prescriptive engine rules look a touch counter productive - wouldn't it better to have a more laissez faire approach governed by other aspects like restrictor size, fuel flow, fuel limits etc?

[Dutton]

I don't think we are able to think that far ahead, quite frankly. There is a vast network of factors that are all beginning to come together, and which will entwine in an ever more tricky way in the coming decades. The world will keep turning, but things are going to change.

What I mean is it is hard to predict exactly what situation we are going to be sitting in in 5 or 10 years time, so it is rather hard to try and think about how things may operate then. For now, the best we can do is try to figure out how things are going to survive in the short-term.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Dutton

China may be an important event in the sense of it having a huge population, but other than that how has the story of that venue been any different to going to middle eastern races? Surely China is a far eastern nation? Or is it just that we don't want arabian nations hosting GPs?

Abu Dhabi, Bharian, Malaysia, Singapore etc. they're on the calendar because of $, and $ alone, you can add s***holes like Hungary and Sao Paolo*.

You never see events like Monaco threatened with removal, too many celebs and models to shag behind the pit garages, but working mens events in F1 heartlands such as the UK, Germany, Canada etc. are ****ed on from a great distance

*Mitigating circumstances a GREAT F1 history.

[Dutton]

I quite agree that the places with poor attendance are only there because of money. I was just curious as to why China was lumped in with the "traditional" venues, when, really, in the context of the discussion, it would surely make more sense to lump them with the Bahrain's of this world.

It is completely pants when tremendously successful events are dumped in favour of ones that are never going to get similar popularity with the local populace simply because some authority is willing to pay loads of money for it. I don't like it at all. I would greatly dislike it if there was a race popular with the locals in the United Arab Emirates that got dumped for one in Holland that wasn't. I am not saying this is likely, but rather that if it happened it would be just as distasteful as the more common direction. It is locally popular destinations being dumped for those without local popularity that is the problem, as opposed to the location itself.

You have to give new places sometime to build up such popularity, but if it doesn't emerge after 3 or 4 years, well, it should absolutely be given the kiss of death. The problem, of course, as we all know, is that all that matters is Bernie's perceptions of what will make the numbers in his bank account go higher. The ticket fees are the only thing that the race organisers actually see, so, unsurprisingly, Bernie couldn't give a fudge if not one person showed up on race day provided enough have their TVs switched on.

I will likely have a celebratory dram when His Shortness croaks, just as I shall when Maggie does the same. I fear that we will have to wait for his death before anything changes, which is fantastically annoying.

[juicy sushi]

it's not bernie's bank account that's the issue. it's CVC's debt levels which need to be serviced, and the need to do so it what is leading bernie to choose the locations he is and demand the fees he is. they're in a desperate race to pay off all the debt and investors as fast as possible.

the thing is, with the global economy being what it is, i don't think he can make it...

[wapomumalo]

I know this are harsh words...but I hope F1 dies...and stops agonizing.

Ask my why...

If it shuts down, endurance will be the top kind of motosports...and that can be easily explained to major sponsors, wich undoubtely supports OUR sport.

Not to mention that I hope that MadMax and Bernie get their bussiness on bankrupcy just to watch their ass**le´s face in the process...

Endurance is traveling also through financial crisis, but the ACO has solid funds and the rules had been measured to cause little damage on teams, and not the opposite like in F1.

Our sport is healthy in terms of technology, innovations and rule stability.

F1 has been manipulated so badly that the results are just now getting into the air...It smells deadly, isn´t it?

[SebringMG]

China are trying to extracate themselves from the F1 deal - too expensive and most of the locals are just not interested (good for them lol).

The more i hear from Bernie in recent months the more convinced that he is going senile i become.......i mean issuing medals instead of points....the man has lost it.

[Adam43]

What does this mean for Sportscar racing? This is not meant to be a thread about F1, otherwise it would be in the F1 forum.

Do the Honda's of the world go to Sportscar, in doing so will they just replace others who are leaving Sportscar racing for the same reason?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

The more i hear from Bernie in recent months the more convinced that he is going senile i become.......i mean issuing medals instead of points....the man has lost it.

Bernie and Max have a habit of throwing out wacky ideas as a smokescreen for their real motivation.

Max is as much part of the fees problem etc as Bernie - they are in it together, always have been. Who was it after all that gave Bernie the promotional rights for 100 years? What other sport signs away its rights for 100 years?

The sooner the teams realise they are all being fleeced and walk away from F1 and start again a new series on their own the better.

[Adam43]

Shall I move this to F1 as it has just become only an F1 topic?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

What does this mean for Sportscar racing? This is not meant to be a thread about F1, otherwise it would be in the F1 forum.

Do the Honda's of the world go to Sportscar, in doing so will they just replace others who are leaving Sportscar racing for the same reason?

I don't think it's one or the other, just a hope F1 takes a smaller piece of the motorsport pie in terms of budgets and media interest.

Few could argue Toyota are poorer, sporting image wise, for dumping long established sportscar and rally efforts, rather pumping everything into a failing F1 program.

Likewise F1 is a poorer series teams such as Benneton, Jordan, Minardi etc. are no longer around. I doubt Renault are seeing a bigger return from a full factory team than the old, tried and trusted, engine supplier days of Williams-Renault.

[Adam43]

It seems the sportscar forum are more interested in the consequences for F1?

Will Le Mans entries be down this year? Full grids for LMS? Perhaps more GT cars and less LMP? Manufacturers to Sportscar and independents to GT? Or manufacturers just supporting GT teams?

Smaller part of the motorsport pie? The whole pie is being eaten away. What I am wondering is, which is more important to sportscar racing, the smaller F1 slice, or the smaller pie overall?

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

It seems the sportscar forum are more interested in the consequences for F1?

Most of us here know enough about motorsport to realise that anything happening in F1 is unlikely to affect sportscar racing directly, yes they are both forms of motorsport but they are very different breeds and therefore attract different sorts of manufacturers and fans, usually. Perhaps that is why there is more talk of how this will affect F1 than sportscar racing?

I can't speak for everyone of course, but I know that a lot of sportscar fans really dont like F1 and coudn't really care less what is going on there. I'm not one of those people but there are a lot who think this way. IMO of course.

[Adam43]

Couldn't care less!

Please can we get away from this analysing why people can't discuss Sportscar racing and get on with discussing the effect on Sportscar racing?

Is one team leaving Honda irrelevant to sportscar racing, a boon for it, or a portent of things to come. This is not simply a discuss an F1 thread.

My guess is that the current climate will effect all aspects of motorsport equally. FIRE mentions Audi's decision to limit their programme. That is interesting, in Sportscar you can do that, in other series it can be more difficult to do that. There is only one series (not LMS, ALMS, FIA GT, ...) and no blue riband events you can just pick and chose. Will it be like club racing where we get less entries to Anglesey than we do to Brands?

[HORNDAWG]

I think in the long term it will be a boon for Sports Car racing. Honda will, IMO, move forward on the heels of the Acura success after the current economic whilpool subsides. In doing so it will give Toyota the opportunity to pursue them and be able to do so without losing face in leaving F-1.

Also Bernie and Max in search of, what that F--- I don't know, have taken F-1 farther and farther away from the reality of what everyone expects it to be. Damaging as all hell, IMO. Can it survive with where it is heading? I don't know. I personally lost interest in it some time back. While I hold in my heart the desire for the original essence of Grand Prix/F-1 racing, it has not fulfilled that for some time now! I hate the parade of disposible cash it has become. I am not trying to bad mouth F-1, just explaining my thoughts. I truly hope it can be a Pheonix and die a fiery death to be re-born anew, but am sceptical of it happening.

IMO, with the **** poor leadership of F-1, at the moment, I do see the tide moving towards Sports Car racing. Hopefully.


L.P.

[Adam43]

The Honda/Acura link is what made me consider this. They could move across, although I've always considered the current Sportscar project detached from Japan. Could this change with more Honda interest now they are out of F1? And with what consequence, horrible manufacturer interest in Sportscar?

The Acura thread is here: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...102029&page=50

[dj choc ice]

i hope F1 lives, otherwise we could end up having idiot's like Bernie and Max coming into sportscar racing, and we sure as hell do not want that.

[isynge]

How about the impact of Jenson Button being a free agent?

I seem to recall he visited a Creation test with JC-W last year and presumably he doesn't want a year doing nothing.

Would he be interested in a few sportscar outings? And would his presence help a team drum up a bit more cash?

[Adam43]

It is not just Jense and Rubes. One knock effect is the number of people who will be looking for jobs. If no one buys Honda then there will be about 800 F1 calibre people out there. A lot will be engineers, but also marketing, logisitics, catering, and drivers. Even if someone does take over Honda they could downsize. I'm sure that the make up of a Sportscar squad isn't in the same proportions as an F1 team. However there will be a lot of quality engineers out there ready to be picked up.