DTM 2022

[Bcarr6]

Some interesting articles about a possible ADAC purchase of DTM floating round today, some more fancifully fleshed out than others.

Taking the consideration of how real the rumour is, it is an interesting topic.

I can see why ADAC could benefit from controlling DTM. The DTM has real strong PRO focused entries, and a next to capacity grid. ADAC has been struggling the last few years comparatively, and the threat of a strong GTWC, even GT Open remains.

A potential format that would make sense to me would be as follows:

ADAC DTM: Single Driver PRO series
ADAC GT: Dual Driver Pro-Am, Young Talent series
ADAC GT4: Dual Driver GT4 series
ADAC TCR: The existing TCR series

Dont know if those would all fit on the same weekend

It would also fix the feeder series a little bit. ADAC GT4 and DTM Trophy are both on the low sit for grid counts, a merger there would be quite beneficial.

[Matt K]

On one hand that would be beneficial, would kind of put the German motor racing in order and eliminate the current confusion of both championships claiming to be the premier level category in Germany.
But, I can't see Berger & co selling DTM that easily unless it was guaranteed that the DTM would be the top of the ladder (which in practice it is anyway) and ADAC GT being sort of a second class.

Btw - where have you seen such rumours? Personally, haven't heard that.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt K

On one hand that would be beneficial, would kind of put the German motor racing in order and eliminate the current confusion of both championships claiming to be the premier level category in Germany.
But, I can't see Berger & co selling DTM that easily unless it was guaranteed that the DTM would be the top of the ladder (which in practice it is anyway) and ADAC GT being sort of a second class.

Btw - where have you seen such rumours? Personally, haven't heard that.

https://sportscar365.com/other-serie...l-series-sale/

Honestly, I think GT Masters is a far better series than DTM.

[Matt K]

Now Motorsport Total is writing about it as well and I tend to trust them, however, nothing is stated very clearly so the outcome is not yet settled.

As for what is better, well, that's a normal thing, one will say ADAC GT, the other DTM. The fact is that since the DTM switched to the GT3 regulations, ADAC GT saw a drop in the grid numbers and quite a number of top teams have either switched to the DTM or at least join DTM in addition to their ADAC GT commitments. That's not to say there are no top teams and drivers in ADAC but probably there are more in the DTM.

The fact is that the DTM is a lot more globally renowned, however, still the biggest following is in Germany and countries 'around' as was seen at Portimao or Imola. Not sure about the on track attendance comparison (would be nice to know it btw) and the TV/online audience, however I bet that more people watched DTM. Looking at social media numbers, the DTM is far ahead although that doesn't necessarily have to be that 'objective.'

So in terms of the championship's position, DTM is probably clearly ahead, although there are likely to be people who would argue with me on that, for example saying that ADAC GT is the 'official' German GT Championship and looking at the SRO universe it's probably their strongest national championship. But anyway, my view is still that the DTM is clearly above, and teams (not all of them I suppose) seem to say that from the commercial perspective DTM means a lot more.

But, which is 'better'? I've always followed DTM and enjoyed that (despite frustrations here and there) but have never been a huge fan of GT racing (I mean sharing the car, you know, the 'typical' GT) so for me it's an easy pick although there was a time I was watching ADAC GT and enjoying that somewhat - what was always difficult for me was that it was the time of way more than 30 cars on the grid + some of the drivers were dropping during the season, being replaced by others, etc and sometimes I was struggling with following who is who and where.
But anyway, I imagine for die-hard GT fans, DTM will never be an option.

In an ideal world, DTM has their own ruleset, maybe more touring car-ish than in the years preceding switch to GT3, something like Supercars (I've always been fond of a fantasy idea of DTM being sort of European Supercars) while ADAC GT is an undisputed top (and only) GT3 series in Germany. But the motorsport stage is shrinking and that's the result. Taking this into consideration, joining forces of DTM and ADAC would probably make sense.

[Akrapovic]

DTM is an option for me, but I cannot stand the arrogance and the presentation of the series.

Their series collapsed because it was poorly managed. They said they'd do GT3 Pro, for no reason other than it'd be cool. Everyone said "hey remember that poorly managed stuff?" and they agreed to do GT3. They then spent the whole of 2021 saying things like Engle was a rookie, and it's Europes premium GT3 sportscar series. Like, wtf, you've switched to this because you failed to manage your series, and how you think you're the best? and claiming these factory GT3 drivers are rookies?

DTM isn't even the best GT3 series in Germany, frankly. And if you want to include NLS, it isn't even second best. Yet they have arrogance which suggests the series is more successful and more popular than it actually is.

I will take ADAC GT Masters over DTM every day of the week in their current formats. The only thing DTM brings to the party is Norisring.

[Matt K]

Well, as for the rookie question guys like Bortolotti or Stolz were rookies in the DTM and it's a fact. If I'm correct, a rookie is someone who's in their first year in the series (in the motorsport context), and guys like Bortolotti or Stolz were indeed in their first year in the DTM. Yes, they were already big names, very experienced in GT3 and not only but no one took it away from them. They were just doing their debut seasons in the DTM, that's it. As for Engel, he did a few seasons in the old era of the DTM so no way anyone called him a rookie. (If you meant him anyway).

Again, as for what is the best is a very subjective thing. Why is the DTM third in the order behind ADAC and NLS? That's not something you can measure, I have no interest in NLS and not a big one for ADAC GT so for me such a "ranking" would look differently. It's subjective.

But, entry figures show that the DTM clearly must be doing something well if the likes of Grasser, Bernhard or HRT are moving here with factory drivers and factory support.

And Norisring is not the only thing that the DTM brings, not for me anyway. However, yes, if I had a choice of choosing either a GT3 DTM or the 'old' DTM, I'd go for the latter 100%. After all, GT3 cars are not as exciting and the ABS and such things are pretty disappointing - they have other advantages over the old DTM cars, however.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

DTM is an option for me, but I cannot stand the arrogance and the presentation of the series.

Their series collapsed because it was poorly managed. They said they'd do GT3 Pro, for no reason other than it'd be cool. Everyone said "hey remember that poorly managed stuff?" and they agreed to do GT3. They then spent the whole of 2021 saying things like Engle was a rookie, and it's Europes premium GT3 sportscar series. Like, wtf, you've switched to this because you failed to manage your series, and how you think you're the best? and claiming these factory GT3 drivers are rookies?

DTM isn't even the best GT3 series in Germany, frankly. And if you want to include NLS, it isn't even second best. Yet they have arrogance which suggests the series is more successful and more popular than it actually is.

I will take ADAC GT Masters over DTM every day of the week in their current formats. The only thing DTM brings to the party is Norisring.

[FIRE]

I can imagine DTM under ADAC management will become a electric series. Remember the Schaeffler electric demo car?





With current GT3, GT4 and TCR as support series.

[Bcarr6]

That whole electric DTM idea has gone extremely quiet… lack of funds I bet

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

That whole electric DTM idea has gone extremely quiet… lack of funds I bet

Yes, it was reported a number of times that Berger is seeking investors for that project. Who knows, maybe with ADAC it'd be easier.

[Matt K]

It was confirmed today that ITR will be dissolved, which means that either DTM will cease to exist or will be taken over by ADAC. According to Berger, talks with ADAC are ongoing but it doesn't seem like anything is finalised.

[GusGasfuss]

I don't think, that DTM in earlier years was poorly managed. It was only big problem, that manufacturers control much of regulations and only if they are still spending lot of money will keep it alive.

That was with 90s DTM, with later Class1-ITC and also the 2000s DTM new start. As long as only manufacturer teams can enter it with huge backup, it can end with brands moving out of the series if money gets short.


Actually, i would think that drivers in DTM were mostly high class, because of the sprint format with one driver per car. Its the nearest to maximum attack.
If you look at GT Masters and even GTWC etc. there is most of the time 1 driver on the car, which is not one same level as the lead driver (but of course maybe pays the whole drive).


I hope, they can find i good solution, because i like to see again GT3-races on this level.

[Matt K]

Agree with you. In my eyes there's only one solution to keep the DTM going - to sell it to ADAC. And actually, I can imagine this could be a very good solution with benefit two both parties. DTM is a very popular platform but with ADAC running it it would have a stable and strong foundation.
Also, that would end the rivalry between ADAC and DTM which wasn't good for neither. So, in theory a lot of good things can happen. But will it happen? That remains to be seen.
Allegedly, ADAC's Board of Directors is meeting tomorrow, perhaps some news will be there..

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Agree with you. In my eyes there's only one solution to keep the DTM going - to sell it to ADAC. And actually, I can imagine this could be a very good solution with benefit two both parties. DTM is a very popular platform but with ADAC running it it would have a stable and strong foundation.
Also, that would end the rivalry between ADAC and DTM which wasn't good for neither. So, in theory a lot of good things can happen. But will it happen? That remains to be seen.
Allegedly, ADAC's Board of Directors is meeting tomorrow, perhaps some news will be there..

The more I think on it, the more I like the idea of a DTM ADAC merger.

Take the best of both series.

DTM does all PRO 20-25 car 50-60min races

GT Masters is for the Pro-Am and Am, Silver etc pairings

ADAC GT4 combines the strong ADAC GT4 grid with whatever is left of DTM trophy

TCR Germany and ADAC F4 get chucked in there to to it all off..

That is a very very compelling race weekend, that alleviates the European GT racing scene a touch for the better


If DTM and Gt Masters raced on the same weekend, you get all the factory drivers in the same place for the weekend. Maybe they do 2x 50 min races in te DTM pro series, then support an AM driver in a pair of 60min races, or even 120-180min races like the British GT does.

Best of both worlds...

Im sure it wont end up as idyllic as that though, probably we will see Gt Masters and DTM merged into one pair of 60min races per weekend, essentially as the ADAC GT masters is now, but without the DTM as competition.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Matt K

It was confirmed today that ITR will be dissolved, which means that either DTM will cease to exist or will be taken over by ADAC. According to Berger, talks with ADAC are ongoing but it doesn't seem like anything is finalised.

why would ADAC bother ?

they have their own GT Masters series which is quite succesful , it even airs on german free TV

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

why would ADAC bother ?

they have their own GT Masters series which is quite succesful , it even airs on german free TV

There is a fairly good summary of why here - https://www.motorsport.com/dtm/news/...tion/10404558/

'Since DTM adopted the GT3 formula in 2021, GT Masters has been struggling with a declining number of team entries, while DTM itself witnessed a record grid this year. It is a trend that is expected to continue in 2023.'

'And with the takeover, ADAC would have the opportunity to establish a proper pyramid in German sportscar racing, with the DTM as the top class for professional works drivers, GT Masters as a GT3 talent factory and GT4 Germany as an entry level series.'

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There is a fairly good summary of why here - https://www.motorsport.com/dtm/news/...tion/10404558/

'Since DTM adopted the GT3 formula in 2021, GT Masters has been struggling with a declining number of team entries, while DTM itself witnessed a record grid this year. It is a trend that is expected to continue in 2023.'

'And with the takeover, ADAC would have the opportunity to establish a proper pyramid in German sportscar racing, with the DTM as the top class for professional works drivers, GT Masters as a GT3 talent factory and GT4 Germany as an entry level series.'

There is an argument that ADAC could just let the DTM crash and burn, and start their own PRO series for a lot less money...

But, I think the DTM name has plenty of value there

[Matt K]

Since it turned out that ITR is struggling financially so much of course it could be said that ADAC could just let the DTM drown because anyway, DTM wouldn't compete with GT Masters anymore as it simply wouldn't be possible to run it anymore.
Let's face it, ADAC GT Masters has been somewhat losing the battle with the DTM in terms of grid number and quality and it's difficult to fight with such an established series with long traditions.
But I think it could be a chance for ADAC, the second-largest automobile club in the world, to take the DTM under their own wings, essentially ending the damaging battle and getting a chance to do something really good for the German motorsport. Why try to start something from scratch if they can have a product that is a lot more valuable than anything they would start? It depends now on the negotiations and what both parties want to achieve but in my opinion, if ADAC were to run the DTM that would be a great scenario. At least in theory.

[FIRE]

I can imagine ADAC takes over the DTM naming rights and renames GT Masters.

With single drivers they still need manufacturers or big sponsors. I am not sure that's a feasible option.

Or ADAC takes over naming rights, in 2023 GT Masters, no DTM. In 2024 DTM electric series and GT Masters.
If the small PWR/STCC can develop a electric racing car. Why can't the large German automotive and motorsport industry do the same? There's no excuse.

Originally Posted by Matt K

DTM is a very popular platform

I am not convinced it still is.

[Bcarr6]

Ite official, ADAC purchase the DTM

[porsche962fan]

" brand rights to the DTM"

in essence means ADAC can do whatever it pleases with the name rights

[Matt K]

So now let's wait for 8th Dec when more details will be announced during the press conference.

[IdealLine]

Sounds like good news! Personally I hope they will differentiate between the GT's and actual touringcars. ADAC GT has been strong, but the DTM brand is huge, especially within Germany. Perhaps they can opt to go the TCR route for DTM (ADAC TCR has been struggling) before moving to electric in the future

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by IdealLine

Sounds like good news! Personally I hope they will differentiate between the GT's and actual touringcars. ADAC GT has been strong, but the DTM brand is huge, especially within Germany. Perhaps they can opt to go the TCR route for DTM (ADAC TCR has been struggling) before moving to electric in the future

Honestly I can't see it. For years now DTM has been either 'touring car+' or almost GT and now GT3. Switching to TCR ruleset which itself seems to be a bit struggling would be a downgrade and DTM would lose all its appeal.

[NaBUru38]

German racecar fans are sophisticated, they can't bother with TCR.


Now, what if the ADAC GT Masters did 2-hour races?