[LM24] Group C - Le Mans 2004

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by aries-project
Not sure of the circuit changes,I know the chicanes on the mulsanne were there in '90 or did they go in in '89? have to look it up tonight.

They were there for 90.

[The Badger]

I remember the first time I set my eyes on the circuit . It was 1989 and I approached from the admin building towards the viewing area under the main grandstands , I remember thinking " Is this it" . Out in the paddock , pot holes the lot and nearly getting wiped out by a Kremer Kenwood 962 as well , nice way to go !!! The old pits complex was a bit sad to say the least but im glad to have seen it before Balastre got his dirty little hands all over it ?

Its going to be magic to see all those group C cars again , I have more of a love for those cars than for anything else . I suppose it is those were the cars that got me interested in sportscar racing . MY first race was won by Brilliant Bob Wollek and Mauro Baldi in Liqui-Moly Equipe (RLR) 956-106B with Bell and Stucky second in a worn out and battered Joest 956-117 . Brands Hatch was also an excellent track too .

[Dan Rear]

Worn Out and battered...., thats an all time classic car.

I saw it win at LM in 84 and 85, the latter time it demolished the works cars, Bell, Ickx, Stuck Mass et al. One of the highlights of my racing ever, Ludwig we know was brilliant, Barilla I thought underrated, but even so, a helluva turn up that result. I'm still not sure how it was done, Joest hasn't ever let on has he ??

The car, 956-117, was good enough to win again at the end of 86 in Japan, against the works/Jags/Japs etc. Ghinzani was brilliant that day, Barilla too. Agree with all comments on Group C, from early 85 to late 90 it was mega, after a bit of a dull start 82-84 I thought.

[Aysedasi]

There was really something very special about those Group C days, wasn't there - and I guess we didn't realise until after Balestre and Ecclestone effectively killed them dead.

[The Badger]

Originally posted by Dan Rear
Worn Out and battered...., thats an all time classic car.
The car, 956-117, was good enough to win again at the end of 86 in Japan, against the works/Jags/Japs etc. Ghinzani was brilliant that day, Barilla too. Agree with all comments on Group C, from early 85 to late 90 it was mega, after a bit of a dull start 82-84 I thought.

My two bank accounts ends in 117 , my phone ends in 117 , my toolbox lock ends in 117 . Im well aware how famous 956-117 is and im delighted that I saw it race . Shame it didnt win a hat trick for Joest!!!

Hehe's to 117

It was worn out after the 1986 Brandshatch 1000km race , it stopped just before the finish line and finished the race at a crawl ..... Bell-Stuck_Ludwig , but I dont think Ludwig drove it at that race . I think he drove 956-104 with Barilla , the Sachs car .

[krt917]

Originally posted by Dan Rear
I'm still not sure how it was done, Joest hasn't ever let on has he ??

I believe it was something to do with the chips which controlled the engine parameters (specifically, fuel flow). If I recall correctly, Porsche only sold two types of chip to their customers (a qually one and a race one), whereas they were able to programme theirs to suit each track/set of conditions. I think that Joest went away, did loads of testing, and then had his own chips/settings done. That was how he was able to get more laps in between each fuel stop than the works team. Having a couple of decent drivers probably helped too!


Peter Morgan's book on the Porsche 956/962 covers this, but I'm nowhere near my copy at the moment so can't check the facts!

[Aysedasi]

That sounds pretty logical to me.......

[KA]

Originally posted by The Badger
Its going to be magic to see all those group C cars again , I have more of a love for those cars than for anything else . I suppose it is those were the cars that got me interested in sportscar racing . MY first race was won by Brilliant Bob Wollek and Mauro Baldi in Liqui-Moly Equipe (RLR) 956-106B with Bell and Stucky second in a worn out and battered Joest 956-117 . Brands Hatch was also an excellent track too .

I know what you mean about those cars- they were how I discovered sportscar racing as well- in my case, Silverstone 1985, the second race meeting of any kind I'd ever been to, and the cars that really caught my imagination were the Lancias and the Lloyd 956 - at that time still in Canon colours for Jonathan Palmer and Jan Lammers

[Williamp]

Originally posted by KA
I know what you mean about those cars- they were how I discovered sportscar racing as well- in my case, Silverstone 1985, the second race meeting of any kind I'd ever been to, and the cars that really caught my imagination were the Lancias and the Lloyd 956 - at that time still in Canon colours for Jonathan Palmer and Jan Lammers

Slightly off-topic, but is 117 the car used by derek Bell for the famous in-car circuit footage "In Car 956???"

Or does anyone know which cars were used during those scenes...

[The Badger]

I dont think that 117 was used for that footage as it was a Joest chassis and not a works car .

[egor]

Any idea which day qualifying will be on for the group C beasts, wednesday or thursday?????

[NissanGTP]

Qualifying is provisionaly set at 17.30 to 18.30 on Thursday.

[KA]

Originally posted by The Badger
I dont think that 117 was used for that footage as it was a Joest chassis and not a works car .

I'm sure you're right- it would have been a works car- if it was filmed in the 1984 season, which was the last year Group C raced on the old Nurburgring, then possibly either 956.009 or 010- As far as I know, 009 seems to have been the usual Bell/Bellof car that year. Alternatively, 956.007 (the works car Bellof had crashed at the Ring in 83) appeared at some races for filming purposes, usually in works/Rothmans colours, but run by Richard Lloyd- Drivers included Lloyd himself, Johnny Dumfries, Vern Schuppan, Nick Mason and Sir Jack Brabham, although apparently Bellof,Ickx and Mass also qualified it on one of it's outings (at Fuji)- not sure if Bell drove it though

[The Badger]

It could also have been 004 too . 004-009-010 were the cars used in the WSPC by the works team . Hey KA ..... Have you got that big 956/962 Porsche book too ? Mine now looks like it was published about 80 years ago and done several 24 hour runs too !!! I'll find out if Bell drove it .....

[Dan Rear]

That mention of the Silverstone 1000Ks in 85 brings back a memory. I remember that year, probably 84 and 86 too, the Drivers Briefing was held in front of the main Grandstand, I think about an hour before the race. It was great to see the Drivers all idling across the track to stand below the Clerk of the Course (John Nichol ?) and listen to him. As I recall it was also commentated on, with Titchmarsh or hay interviewing drivers just after.

A great, and slightly esoteric, sight, with world-class/F1 men like Boutsen, Bell, Ickx, Bellof, Warwick, Winkelhock, Baldi, Palmer, Lammers, Cheever, Surer etc standing next to the likes of Max Payne, John Bartlett, Duncan Bain, Roy Baker, plus the myriad exotic-sounding but slow Italians/French/Japanese !!

Truly great days indeed.

[The Badger]

Nope , he only drove 009 in Group C in 84 . I remember seeing the Lancia LC2 at Brands in 86 . It wasnt the works supported machine but it was painted in a wonderful dark green and white with a black stripe and the sound of it was just awesome ..... Im hoping that somebodybbrings one of those to the support race ..... or two !!!!!

[JAG]

There are 2 US based LC2s that hopefully will be at LM.

[BillandLara]

Just hearing about these great cars is making me glad I am going to be there on Friday morning giving us time to see the support races and the pit walk etc on Saturday. Last year Nick and I got to the circuit during the rain storm and spent an hour or so setting out the tent and such, what a waste of time! But in our favour we hadn't the benefit of this site and the CA one then.

Just looking at my digital photo album, there was a funny thing.

The first car photo I took at Tertre Rouge was the no61 Pagini that was first to retire about an hour later. Hope it wasn't me that made it happen, first race car photographed with my new camera packs in after 10 laps.

Got the first to retire fact from the ACO form issued on Sunday at 7 AM, convince me it's wrong someone or I'll be worried about which car to photo next!!!

[rdjones]

Originally posted by JAG
There are 2 US based LC2s that hopefully will be at LM.

You may be wrong ther, I am not up on Lancia Chassis, but I saw this one at Donnington (supporting the DTM) last summer, sadly it didn't race but was parked up in the Paddock

[JAG]

Originally posted by rdjones
You may be wrong ther, I am not up on Lancia Chassis, but I saw this one at Donnington (supporting the DTM) last summer, sadly it didn't race but was parked up in the Paddock

If I'm not mistaken that is one of the US cars. They came over for a few races in Europe in 2003.

Bryan International run the cars.

http://www.groupc-gtpracing.com/spapict1.htm

[aries-project]

Pretty sure the Bryans will be running 2 Lancias at Le Mans,that was one of their cars at Donington.

[JAG]

Originally posted by aries-project
Pretty sure the Bryans will be running 2 Lancias at Le Mans,that was one of their cars at Donington.

Hope they run the UK round/s.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by BillandLara
Just hearing about these great cars is making me glad I am going to be there on Friday morning giving us time to see the support races and the pit walk etc on Saturday. Last year Nick and I got to the circuit during the rain storm and spent an hour or so setting out the tent and such, what a waste of time! But in our favour we hadn't the benefit of this site and the CA one then.

Just looking at my digital photo album, there was a funny thing.

The first car photo I took at Tertre Rouge was the no61 Pagini that was first to retire about an hour later. Hope it wasn't me that made it happen, first race car photographed with my new camera packs in after 10 laps.

Got the first to retire fact from the ACO form issued on Sunday at 7 AM, convince me it's wrong someone or I'll be worried about which car to photo next!!!

You're right. The pagani was the ACOs first official retirement - according to the official bumpf, having run for 1hr, 7 minutes, 47.399 seconds...... (or 10 laps).

Point your camera at the Debora (if it gets in) Bill......

[LC2guy]

Those Lancia LC2's are my favourite ever sportscar. I first saw them at Silverstone in 1983 , when they completed the first lap with a lead of about 7 seconds. Of course, it soon became apparent they were the only cars on wets, and were soon reeled in by the 956's on intermediates as soon as it started to dry, but the impression had already been made. I'm going to Le Mans in June, and i'm not sure which race i'm looking forward to the most. ( Well , the answer is Both )

[Aysedasi]

Exactly. Me too.