BTCC - why so few cars?

[Andy H]

Well we are just over a week from the new BTCC season, and so far we have 11 'proper' entries (I exclude class B and Lee Brookes as he has no car!)

Why oh why can't we get anyone else, the refugee European series has 18 cars led by Peter Kox, the STCC has even more and the BTCC is meant to be a world leading series!

Gow said he was expecting more entries still at the BTCC Media day - well where are they then? We haven't even had one have we?


It's not like the remaining drivers inspire confidence in the future when James Thompson decides to drive in the DTM as well (planning for next year?)

It's all so frustrating the BTCC has a great support package but to me the main event looks fairly tatty.

[Super Tourer]

Andy.

Gow has been talking of new entries since the end of last year. At the TOCA dinner he talked up the BTCC to the point where he claimed there would be more Nissans on the grid this year than last (wrong). He has also talked of 4 cars coming over from Germany (wrong)

The simple fact is that the BTCC is too expensive as a super touring series. Incidentally Lee Brookes has withdrawn. At is was reported today in Autosport that a swedish car that was considering a '98 Nissan will not take part due to high engine lease costs.

Unless you are a very well funded independent that wants to spend lots of your own money going racing, the BTCC is not viable. Forget all the TV and crowds, sponsors are not interested in putting their name on a car in the BTCC for the sort of sums that are required to go racing. They can get as much or more exposure through their normal ad means, billboard,tv, mags, press, etc. I work in the advertising industry and have worked on sponsorship and can tell you it is the most thankless task.

[Andy H]

I agree with your points, I still can't understand how lower profile series like the European and Swedish can still get a grid size nearly double the BTCC!

What do we need to do to get more entries like these series? (no-one say Super Production)

[Super Tourer]

The reason is that those series don't have any real works teams or current cars in them.

If the BTCC were all privateers then it may succeed as super touring. But when you have a works team with an 6-8 million pound budget against independents with £500,000 tops, it will never work.

It is reputed that last year Nissan allegedly spent £14 million & Ford £10 million. The top privateer spent probably £500,000 to £600,000 and the lowest budget indie £350,000 -£400,000.

If it were all independent then the teams would be fairly even on things like engine re-builds etc. You could buy an older Super Tourer with a '96 engine run it away from the performance edge to save re-builds and get away with maybe 1 engine re-build per year. In the BTCC a competitive egine lease will cost £25,000 per year with re-build cost of £10,000 to £12,000 and 5 or more of these per year.

The formula saloons championship looks quite interesting with 9 confirmed Super Touring entries, here you can see how Touring cars can be run cheaply because they are all run cheaply !

As in all forms of motorsport - manufacturer teams and private teams simply do not mix.

[Andy H]

fair enough, but we only have 2 privateers anyway (if you count Matt Neal who is hardly the average indie entry)

so why don't a dozen or so other indies use a load of 97/98 cars and run fairly evenly matched field with numbers approaching the 9 works cars anyway?

it would be better than the current B class we are stuck with to make up the numbers.


Do you think if we lose the few works teams we have the entries would go up? or will we be left with no cars?

[Super Tourer]

The perceived level of everything that you need to compete in the BTCC means that you won't see any indies with 97/98 cars running in the BTCC, even for a race within a race.

The BTCC will become a Super Production plus category (if the BRDC and BMP can sort out their squabble) the good of British motorsport spirit didn't last long there !!

No manufacturers will build ST cars after this year. The TOCA 2001 rules won't happen
nobody has come forward to build cars to those rules and they haven't been adopted by anyone else so efectively contemporary ST is dead.

The BTCC will only run with current cars which means it will be Super Pro plus maybe a bit. The works teams will still want a nice earner out of it so will build more cars - run two or three as a team and sell current cars to private teams. These should be more affordable and cheaper to run (initially) if the MSA can keep a lid on it.

Car makers will always want to promote their cars, so the BTCC will probably comprise pure works teams, semi works teams and independent teams. If the pace of development can be slowed this should make a year or more old car still a competitve one.

It may encourage more car makers who have taken fright at the sort of sums previously involved. Under SP rules I can see a two car factory team being run for 750K to 1 million
tops. A good private team could run competively on 200k-250k which is around good NSC budget terms. This means that the sort of driver budgets available would make this attainable. Any driver that wants to race in a major national championship has to have 120k to 140K (Formula Renault will cost 140k for example & a frontline Formula Ford seat will cost 90k to 100k.

Its all about making the BTCC less manufacturer dependent, so that if they do pull out it is still sustainable. I think this is the way.

[Dan Friel]

I can see TOCA having a real problem here.. perhaps that's why Mr Gow is cutting his loses and selling up!!!!

The main problem being - TOCA simply does not have the rights to run the 'offical' SP series next year (or the following years). The POWERTOUR package has cemented the rights, and now have a really good TV deal as well.... I can't see how TOCA can support a private series next year. And I shall be really interested to see how many SP cars they get at Brands next week!!!

The real shame is, that they've just sorted out their supporting races at last, and apart from the ST's it looks a top package this year.

Short answer is, that no-one knows what will happen to TOCA next year, not even Mr Gow (that's if he cares at all mind you..)

[RIKB]

It is clear thet the BTCC is not in good order right now, 2000 was always going to be a transitional year, but 2001 would see new rules. Rules that would make Super Touring more competitive and cheaper to enter. Rules written in co-operation with the teams, including some of those who have subsequently left the series.

Alan Gow said that he had new manufacturers waiting to come in under the new rules. Whether this is true or not, I guess we shall never know, unless these manufacturers come forward and say.

What is clear is that BMP and MSA between them, are instead of breathing life into the series, killing it off. The 2001 rules are on hold as manufacturers are not going to develop a new car for just one season. No one knows what to prepare for. With this situation going on, I'm not in the least bit surprised that no one else has joined the series.

If we go down the road of Super Production Plus, whilst I'm sure the racing will be all very exciting, it will no longer attract the calibre of driver we enjoy now.

[RIKB]

It is not PowerTour who have the rights, it is a group called BMP, made up of circuit owners.

They actually have the rights from 2002, TOCA still have them for 2001.

[kmchow]

RIKB wrote:

>Alan Gow said that he had new manufacturers >waiting to come in under the new rules. >Whether this is true or not, I guess we >shall never know, unless these >manufacturers come forward and say.
>
Perhaps one of them is Toyota or Lexus with their Altezza or IS200. The car has been racing in Japan for a full year. I ran into some Japanese sites that mentioned the car along with the term "Supertouring". Of course, that term was the only one I understand so I don't know the context of the term. Furthermore, there were a few discussions about it racing a while back too. Interesting... It would be very nice to have Toyota, Mazda and Rover back in the game again!! I miss them!!

[Sparky]

Anyone see the orange Mazda 323F SuperTourer for sale in Autosport recently?

Full data logging, 2 spare engines, spare sequential 'boxes, 9 sets of wheels 'n' tyres, etc... Never raced, tested four times - £35,000

How 'cheap' is that?!!

Wanna go halvsies?

[kmchow]

Sparky wrote:

>Anyone see the orange Mazda 323F >SuperTourer for sale in Autosport recently?
>
What issue?

>Full data logging, 2 spare engines, spare >sequential 'boxes, 9 sets of wheels 'n' >tyres, etc... Never raced, tested four >times - £35,000
>
Oh yeah, I recall reading about that car? Who built it? Roger Dawson Engineering I think?

>How 'cheap' is that?!!
>
Hard to say...the car obviously has low kms, but then, that also means it isn't race sorted? For 45K pounds, you can also get a few '96 Primeras/Mondeos? Perhaps those race tested cars would be better candidates? ooh, I just LOVE all this used ST car talk!!!

[vauxhall]

BLAST FROM THE PAST


AHHHHHHHH...these where the day, the errr.. super tourers?
humm anyway!

[hunttheshunt]

I wondered what Mr.H had been talking about when i looked at this thread-i can't believe you digged this one up, vauxhall! In any case, Mr.H couldn't have be mistaken for talking about this year, because i actually think we'll get a fair few entries;

4 888 Vauxhall Astras
3 VCL Pug 406s
4 JSM Alfa 147s
2 ABG Lexus IS200s
2 WSR MG X20's

That's a total of 15 entries-add in a couple of Volvo's late season plus the possibility of two privateer Astra and that's 199 cars-'not bad, not bad'.