The Merit of T-Cars (formerly Next Best BTCC driver)

[Al123]

Originally Posted by mark77

Please correct me but weren't about 5 of the T Cars drivers also racing in Sax Max at the end of the season. If so it speaks for itself

I am only aware of one ;dan brown unless someone was doing it that I didn't know about but definatly not 5

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Al123

I am only aware of one ;dan brown unless someone was doing it that I didn't know about but definatly not 5

Ryan Borthwick did a couple of races.

[Al123]

oh ok my bad

[lucianobacheta]

WOW, i cant beleive this, here we get u guys teachin us how to spell, yet you go and mug urselves off by saying that 5 t car ppl done saxmax, wasnt maths on the curriculum back in the day? Or maybe you read the names wrong, yeah sorry thats probably it, so its u guys that need to brush up on the old languages, at least we can read and count!

[Woolley]

*cough*
Any more spelling discussions will be removed, and please all, read the rules about text speak. I know we're talking about a teenagers' series, but we don't have to write like them too. As a general rule, anything I can't understand gets deleted.

Thank you.

[Tim Wilkinson]

So in light of SaxMax having superior numbers and (arguably) being cheaper, what exactly are the merits of T-Cars? What would the 2007 drivers be expected to gain in that championship that they wouldn't in another, or by staying in karting?

And how about a sensible answer, please, rather than a "stop getting on the kids' backs" post.....?

[danccooke]

Did anyone read the article a few months back in Autosport about the three Junior Categories? I believe it was Huff who tested all three. He gave a pro and Con of each of the cars. The lasting thing that I remember him saying was that the T-cars were small racing cars, true racing cars. Fast, twitchy and he wouldn't put one of his kids in one. Really if you can get your hands on a copy of this article read it.

From what he said I read into it, That Sax and Ginetta's are great starter series (what is the plural of series?) good to learn the trade so to speak and to head off into tin top racing such as BTCC and WTCC. T cars he kind of gave the impression required a bit more driving that perhaps the other two and would get you ready for big rear wheel drive cars such as GT's

But all said and done, I have marshalled all three of the events, I have fished a few lads out of the gravel, off of tire walls. Most have been nice lads generally better behaved then some of the FBMW drivers that I have dealt with.
I have enjoyed the racing as the season has gone on the drivers have learnt their craft. If it was really bad racing I wouldn't volunteer to stand out in what ever the environment can throw at me for fun.

That first meet back in March was bloody cold but you guys kept us amused and busy at times, Mr Brundle (i know i know first race and all) and throughout the year the racing has got better and the unforced errors fewer.

I don't know why people are condeming the series, if we are going down that route, The Ferarri cup at Thruxton a few weeks ago with 9 cars of which only 8 made it to the race. Expensive cars low numbers but still they race and no one makes anything of it. Surely it is the same except that perhaps the drivers are spending their own money and not perhaps Daddy's or a Sponsors.

I think we have some green eyed monsters out there who would like to be in their position, Hell i would have liked to have been in that position when i was a teenager, but i wasn't. So instead I feel happy for those who are, rather than do the typically English thing of bashing the sucessful rather than supporting them to become more sucessful.

I am rambling now long shifts do that to me so i will just hit the post button

p.s any spelling mistakes are deliberate just to give the bored something to do.

[mark77]

Luciano, as I said please correct me - I hadn't looked at the results to see an exact number, and hands up 5 was wrong (I'd also seen the surname Palmer on both and assumed it to be the same driver). After looking at numbers 5 would have been almost 1/2 the T cars field.

My problem with T Cars is only on the number of entrants. I'm certainly not a green eyed monster, and indeed would encourage all those who can afford to get involved to do so (our sport needs all the young blood it can get).

However I believe the MSA should be getting tighter on the number of series out there (whether aimed old or young). I know other threads cover the subject, but all in all we need more money coming into the sport and I don't think races with small grids encourage this

[racer-gal]

Originally Posted by kipper

Ryan Borthwick did a couple of races.

scuse me if im being piccy, but if i remember correctly, from the last time i spoke to ryan and jock at the test day at croft, he only did 1.

[racer-gal]

Originally Posted by danccooke

Did anyone read the article a few months back in Autosport about the three Junior Categories? I believe it was Huff who tested all three. He gave a pro and Con of each of the cars. The lasting thing that I remember him saying was that the T-cars were small racing cars, true racing cars. Fast, twitchy and he wouldn't put one of his kids in one. Really if you can get your hands on a copy of this article read it.

From what he said I read into it, That Sax and Ginetta's are great starter series (what is the plural of series?) good to learn the trade so to speak and to head off into tin top racing such as BTCC and WTCC. T cars he kind of gave the impression required a bit more driving that perhaps the other two and would get you ready for big rear wheel drive cars such as GT's

But all said and done, I have marshalled all three of the events, I have fished a few lads out of the gravel, off of tire walls. Most have been nice lads generally better behaved then some of the FBMW drivers that I have dealt with.
I have enjoyed the racing as the season has gone on the drivers have learnt their craft. If it was really bad racing I wouldn't volunteer to stand out in what ever the environment can throw at me for fun.

That first meet back in March was bloody cold but you guys kept us amused and busy at times, Mr Brundle (i know i know first race and all) and throughout the year the racing has got better and the unforced errors fewer.

I don't know why people are condeming the series, if we are going down that route, The Ferarri cup at Thruxton a few weeks ago with 9 cars of which only 8 made it to the race. Expensive cars low numbers but still they race and no one makes anything of it. Surely it is the same except that perhaps the drivers are spending their own money and not perhaps Daddy's or a Sponsors.

I think we have some green eyed monsters out there who would like to be in their position, Hell i would have liked to have been in that position when i was a teenager, but i wasn't. So instead I feel happy for those who are, rather than do the typically English thing of bashing the sucessful rather than supporting them to become more sucessful.

I am rambling now long shifts do that to me so i will just hit the post button

p.s any spelling mistakes are deliberate just to give the bored something to do.

t-cars ARE small racing cars, specially built racing cars for 14-17 year olds. and fair enough huff wouldn't put his kid into one of them, but lots of dads have, over the years that t-cars has been going, no ones ever died! the worst thing that has happened is probly when oli flipped his car, or alex and adrien's cars setting fire and all of them walked away unharmed, yes maybe shaken up, but they did not have life threatening injuries. and i'm fairly sure the people that made t-cars in the first place wouldn't put a "youngster" into the car if they thought it was unsafe/too fast/technical for them!!!

[redshoes]

You don't need to quote the entire post, just the section you are responding to.

Originally Posted by racer-gal

t-cars ARE small racing cars, specially built racing cars for 14-17 year olds.

Sorry to be equally picky, but no they are not. They were never built specifically for T-cars. They are a stock chassis built to accomodate many variations of engine/running gear. T-cars are only one of at least 3 series to use the cars.

Originally Posted by racer-gal

over the years that t-cars has been going, no ones ever died!

I only hope you meant that tongue in cheek as I can't believe you actually said that.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by racer-gal

scuse me if im being piccy, but if i remember correctly, from the last time i spoke to ryan and jock at the test day at croft, he only did 1.

Indeed, I've just checked and Borthwick only raced at Donington, I had thought he had appeared at Brands but clearly I was wrong. Sorry for that oversight. Regardless of the numbers, I only made the point in reponse to a post criticising the number of T Car drivers racing in SAXMAX, which is comparable to the number of SAXMAX drivers competing in Ginetta Juniors for instance. Personally, I feel that drivers from the under age categories competing in their competing championships can only be a good thing for it boosts grids and more importantly enables drivers to experience more circuits and fighting with a different set of drivers than if they stuck to their primary series.

Originally Posted by racer-gal

t-cars ARE small racing cars, specially built racing cars for 14-17 year olds. and fair enough huff wouldn't put his kid into one of them, but lots of dads have, over the years that t-cars has been going, no ones ever died! the worst thing that has happened is probly when oli flipped his car, or alex and adrien's cars setting fire and all of them walked away unharmed, yes maybe shaken up, but they did not have life threatening injuries

Regardless of T Cars good safety record, I think the issue is that some people would have reservations about letting their children race in a series in which the cars are so highly developed relative to alternative series so this may impact on the number of potential drivers for T Cars.

[Al Weyman]

I see there is a phenominal Ginetta entry at Donington for next weekend, something like a grid of 37! Dunno whether that included reserves. I was at the first Great and British at Snett earlier this year and I think there was less than 10 so something is working well in young people's motorsport.

[redshoes]

Hadn't noticed it on the calendar until now but Brands are running Junior Festival at the end of the month featuring T-Cars, Ginettas and SaxMax. Should be a good opportunity to compare the relative merits of the three.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I see there is a phenominal Ginetta entry at Donington for next weekend, something like a grid of 37! Dunno whether that included reserves. I was at the first Great and British at Snett earlier this year and I think there was less than 10 so something is working well in young people's motorsport.

The Ginettas that are racing at Donington is the adult championship, which has had really good grids for a few years now. The Ginetta Junior grids are not yet anywhere near this level, although the rounds at Snetterton at the begining of the year were non-championship, which may have accounted for a few absentees.

[Al Weyman]

Ahh I see, I thought it was for the kids only.

[Dan Friel]

The more you think about T cars, the more you realise that there are few positives..

1. A race series with 9 cars running in a race is bad news for the reputation of motorsport generally. It’s going to put more people off than attract them. Especially when it gets live TV time!

2. There are other series which have considerably greater grids, so why have T cars remained low since day one? Can someone answer this, especially as SAXMAX grids are in the 20’s already??

3. There simply aren’t enough competitive T car racers to make winning really mean anything. Beating 5 other racers is rather meaningless when you consider the strength in depth throughout karting in this country.

4. People do believe that winning T cars actually means something, and this is the biggest problem. This will mean that other talented racers will miss out due to the hype generated by T cars..

What is the problem with racing karts, moving onto Formula Ford (a regional series) OR grown up Ginettas (for the sportscar route) and then thinking about whether you are good enough?

Unfortunately (for those racing in it), many people believe that racing in T cars simply means you have more cash than talent.

[gravel_monkey]

i have said a few times and again this year when they were at oulton, there is just no point to t-cars. the theory behind them is excellent, getting young guys and girls out racing preparing them to make the jump to the bigger series and this as a theory has worked. as mentioned the ginetta's and saxmax series. i just have never seen a future in t-cars and can not understand how they keep getting a series licence. i think if this was any other series it would have been killed off by now. even with msv backing this just will not change. if they can get 15-20 cars out on a grid then i may start to change my mind but everytime time i see t-cars on an event list i know it is practice and race time for the circuit most people will be bored stupid with!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

2. There are other series which have considerably greater grids, so why have T cars remained low since day one? Can someone answer this, especially as SAXMAX grids are in the 20’s already??

When T-Cars first started wasn't there an MSA requirement that said the maximum grid size was something like 8 or 10 cars? Not sure if that rule still applies. It certainly does to SaxMax or Ginettas.

[Al123]

Originally Posted by kipper

Regardless of T Cars good safety record, I think the issue is that some people would have reservations about letting their children race in a series in which the cars are so highly developed relative to alternative series so this may impact on the number of potential drivers for T Cars.

I disagree. If I had my brands crash in a ginetta for example I think the thing would just dissolve . the amazement of the year for me has been how big of a whack a T-car can take ( clearly I have been trying too hard to find out"!)

[kelvin88]

hello, my names Kelvin and im new on here, can i ask all the T-car drivers on here a question?!
do you like the T-car formula or do you think you would prefer the ginettas or the saxo?

[danccooke]

Racer-Gal I think you misread my argument? I was simply stating that the three different junior categories we have all lead to different ends (possibly) I am sure I worded it in a quite Pro all three categories.
Did you read past the first paragraph? If not i will sumise for you. I think they are great just need more people in them.
Looking forward to the 28th at brands

[lucianobacheta]

Originally Posted by kelvin88

hello, my names Kelvin and im new on here, can i ask all the T-car drivers on here a question?!
do you like the T-car formula or do you think you would prefer the ginettas or the saxo?

T car all the way. I felt at ease straight away when i first drove the FPA, and it was wet.

[racer-gal]

Originally Posted by danccooke

Racer-Gal I think you misread my argument? I was simply stating that the three different junior categories we have all lead to different ends (possibly) I am sure I worded it in a quite Pro all three categories.
Did you read past the first paragraph? If not i will sumise for you. I think they are great just need more people in them.
Looking forward to the 28th at brands

sorry about that.

and people... if t-cars has been going for 7 years... why should it end now? it obviously has a future, it just needs to be advitised more.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by racer-gal

sorry about that.

and people... if t-cars has been going for 7 years... why should it end now?

Because the grids haven't improved much and now there's alternatives to it. If adult series get consistently low numbers then they get canned, and people have to race elsewhere (joining better supported championships), that's the way of the world.

it obviously has a future, it just needs to be advitised more.

In what way obvious?

If T-Cars can get numbers up or show it fulfils a purpose that no other championship does, then it deserves to stay. If not, why should it be exempt from an MSA yellow-card? Not that that would necessarily stop it being run as a series.....