The Merit of T-Cars (formerly Next Best BTCC driver) - Page 5

Dan Friel · 17 Oct 2006, 18:55 (Ref:1740469)

If the MSA were being even handed, then the championship would have received a warning about grid sizes. With the growth / success of other similar series I believe that their hand may well be forced next year (i.e. why does T cars warrant special protection?).

Was actually looking at the T cars website a minute ago, what happened to the couple of drivers who were winning the races at the start of the season (and presumably leading the series at that stage?)?

Al123 · 17 Oct 2006, 19:37 (Ref:1740504)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kelvin88

hello, my names Kelvin and im new on here, can i ask all the T-car drivers on here a question?!
do you like the T-car formula or do you think you would prefer the ginettas or the saxo?

t-cars , I have driven both ginettas and
t-cars and spoken at length with friends who drive saxmaxes. I considered my options pretty carefully before I went the way of t-cars. The car is just so much better to drive

kelvin88 · 17 Oct 2006, 20:48 (Ref:1740571)

in that case, Alex, if your collegues feel the same, then the formula has a future. ignore the doom bringers! and enjoy your racing!

Novice · 17 Oct 2006, 21:01 (Ref:1740598)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer-gal

the worst thing that has happened is probly when oli flipped his car, or alex and adrien's cars setting fire and all of them walked away unharmed,

Oops I must be a jinx as I got Oli and Alex out of their cars.

As for the series, yes the numbers have been low but they have improved and so has the racing. As for producing stars of the future we will have to wait and see. Although one on a charge is Tom Onslow-Cole 2006 Clio Cup Champion. Tom Kimber Smith has made it into the LMES series, Tom Boardman 2005 Seat Cupra Champion, Jonathan Cocker British / FIA GT's in 2006. There are more but I'm sure youve had enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by danccooke

I think we have some green eyed monsters out there who would like to be in their position, Hell i would have liked to have been in that position when i was a teenager, but i wasn't. So instead I feel happy for those who are, rather than do the typically English thing of bashing the sucessful rather than supporting them to become more sucessful.

Dan youve hit the nail on the head. Why shouldnt Alex or Jolyon enjoy the support of their fathers. They have the funds available to do it and to enjoy it, they should be encouraged. All future stars of motorsport need a helping hand even if they have got the talent.Talent alone does not guarantee you a top drive or a future in motorsport. Several have slipped by the wayside as they cannot raise the funds to get a drive let alone be paid for it.

I'll slip away now with my pipe and slippers and get ready for a good beating for standing up for the series now.

gravel_monkey · 17 Oct 2006, 21:19 (Ref:1740625)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kelvin88

in that case, Alex, if your collegues feel the same, then the formula has a future. ignore the doom bringers! and enjoy your racing!

for the likes of kelvin and of people like novice who have posted above. no one is what you would call "a doom bringer". everyone would love to see t-cars with big grids and great racing. the problem people have is that while other series have been given a warning or even had their licence revoked that had similar if not larger grids to t-cars. the t-cars have been given the green light again and again despite the very low grid numbers. as well as this it has no real sense of being on the racing ladder ( as someone mentioned earlier they went to fpa after t-cars, why do t-cars then single seaters) and there are now 2 other similar series with very large grids and cheaper running costs so it is now not alone in the type of series it is!

kelvin88 · 17 Oct 2006, 21:38 (Ref:1740645)

i hear what your saying gravel monkey, i dont know why the Tcars have amnesty from the yellow card rule. maybe there is someone from the MSA on here that can explain? i just dont think its fair to take it up with the drivers.

Ian Sowman · 17 Oct 2006, 21:54 (Ref:1740654)

Only this year have credible alternatives to T Cars come about (Ginetta Juniors came on late last year with grids no better than T Cars). So to that extent, T Cars had to be exempted from the card system as there was no other alternative for drivers in that age group. Maybe that will change now; in reality the worst that could happen is that it would revert to a series of races rather than a championship.

As for why do T Cars then single-seaters in FPA... Well, you can't start racing in single-seaters until you are 14, so perhaps better to start in T Cars than wait until you're 15 and FBMW.

**Stephen Green** · 18 Oct 2006, 07:04 (Ref:1740836)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gravel_monkey

for the likes of kelvin and of people like novice who have posted above. no one is what you would call "a doom bringer". everyone would love to see t-cars with big grids and great racing. the problem people have is that while other series have been given a warning or even had their licence revoked that had similar if not larger grids to t-cars. the t-cars have been given the green light again and again despite the very low grid numbers. as well as this it has no real sense of being on the racing ladder ( as someone mentioned earlier they went to fpa after t-cars, why do t-cars then single seaters) and there are now 2 other similar series with very large grids and cheaper running costs so it is now not alone in the type of series it is!

If you look back in the thread a few posts you will see that Redshoes has suggested gris size is limited by the MSA. Until we have news to the contary it might explain the low numbers. Anyone care to find out the truth before we slam the series even more?

Dan Friel · 18 Oct 2006, 07:42 (Ref:1740859)

Stephen, I've just looked and there's absoultely nothing in the regulations about a limit of grid sizes (well apart from the registration fee of £500!). Nor is there any limit on SAXMAX (same concept), and has had grids in the 20's in it's first year.

It's got me thinking about cash. Who exactly makes money out of T cars? It can't be the clubs as race entry fees won't be enough to cover track time costs.. There's a junior fesitival in a couple of weeks where a total of c.45 cars will be present for a day at Brands. How can such a meeting be making anyone any money at all??? I was led to believe that it cost almost £20k to hire Brands..

R59 · 18 Oct 2006, 14:04 (Ref:1741209)

It may cost £20K to hire Brands, but when you consider the Junior Festival is a MSVR affair - it costs nothing to "hire your own" circuit.

Which is how it should be everywhere.

Rob.

barry barnes · 18 Oct 2006, 20:22 (Ref:1741528)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racing59

It may cost £20K to hire Brands, but when you consider the Junior Festival is a MSVR affair - it costs nothing to "hire your own" circuit.

Which is how it should be everywhere.

Rob.

Exactly !

**Tim Falce** · 18 Oct 2006, 20:28 (Ref:1741535)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racing59

It may cost £20K to hire Brands, but when you consider the Junior Festival is a MSVR affair - it costs nothing to "hire your own" circuit.

Which is how it should be everywhere.

Rob.

Not quite true. MSVR is run as a seperate entity to MSV and on paper would have to budget for circuit hire from MSV.

racer-gal · 18 Oct 2006, 21:18 (Ref:1741580)

regardless of the grid numbers... it gives good racing. look at ladders and max at snetts, that was bloomin close. and as for having "too many" drivers, martin phaff has put a limit on the ginetta juniors as he wants the drivers to learn without having a damage bill at the end of every meeting.(or thats what i heard last)

kipper · 18 Oct 2006, 21:44 (Ref:1741600)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer-gal

as for having "too many" drivers, martin phaff has put a limit on the ginetta juniors as he wants the drivers to learn without having a damage bill at the end of every meeting.(or thats what i heard last)

I think there is a difference in placing a limit on starters for some reason (be it safety, commercial or whatever) and having a smaller grid due to lack of uptake, which as far as I know is the reason for size of the T Cars grid.

Al123 · 19 Oct 2006, 09:55 (Ref:1741949)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kelvin88

in that case, Alex, if your collegues feel the same, then the formula has a future. ignore the doom bringers! and enjoy your racing!

doom bringers hahaha I love it . good idea might take you up on that one

terence · 21 Oct 2006, 20:31 (Ref:1744341)

Good for you Alex, it matters not one iota who these young drivers are, what matters is that they sre out there, sure ,some of them will not make it,but at least they are getting a chance to find out who will or wont get there. There are some very talented youngsters out there, unfortunatly not all of thier parents art wealthy enough to give them a chance, but thats how life is.I know Martin would probably agree, I can remember a certain young lad serving me petrol at his fathers garage inTotenhill,I also remember his first saloon race at avery wet Snetterton, chasing Martyn Birrane,s Camaro, he was only in a Toyota Celica [much raced by a very good friend of mine], he did o.k. for himself, you might have seen/ heard him on T.V. So cut them some slack, they deserve the chances that we,ve had.The Celica driver finished 2nd O/A by the way.

R59 · 21 Oct 2006, 21:18 (Ref:1744356)

Quote:

Originally Posted by falcemob

Not quite true. MSVR is run as a seperate entity to MSV and on paper would have to budget for circuit hire from MSV.

Yeah but, no but, yeah but, no but, Jonathon Palmer (running MSVR) decides to put on a meeting for the junior championships that involves his very own son. Therefore, he (MSV) charges himself 20K to run his own meeting. Yeah right!

On paper maybe - for the accountants maybe, in reality. Nah!

terence · 22 Oct 2006, 14:54 (Ref:1745022)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racing59

Yeah but, no but, yeah but, no but, Jonathon Palmer (running MSVR) decides to put on a meeting for the junior championships that involves his very own son. Therefore, he (MSV) charges himself 20K to run his own meeting. Yeah right!

On paper maybe - for the accountants maybe, in reality. Nah!

What, Jonathan decided all on his own?????

Dan Friel · 23 Oct 2006, 12:03 (Ref:1746118)

I thought MSV were now meant to be running a tight ship, and I find running a "charity event" rather strange. Should the other clubs be worried about deals between the mother organisation and racing club?

On the 750MC website, they are now taking pre-bookings for SAXMAX 2007! I can see them having to run heats next year.

barry barnes · 23 Oct 2006, 20:23 (Ref:1746720)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racing59

Yeah but, no but, yeah but, no but, Jonathon Palmer (running MSVR) decides to put on a meeting for the junior championships that involves his very own son. Therefore, he (MSV) charges himself 20K to run his own meeting. Yeah right!

On paper maybe - for the accountants maybe, in reality. Nah!

You Old Cynic You !!!!!!!! - bet he has written some 'creative accounts' in his past like all of us.

Its been interesting reading all the comments re cost / merits of one championship against others etc., what really matters is that there is new blood coming in to the sport which is good but how long will they stay ?

Unfortunately doing T Cars will not automatically find you a place in BTCC unless you find a pile of money and a team prepared to cater to your every whim ! Works drives 99% of the time go to the best drivers where ever and what T Cars offer over their competitors is not guaranteeing anything plus it is the most expensive of the 3. All of these do offer the chance to sample real cars at an early age but you dont have to do it if you have raw talent and a natural ability - you could wait then go strait to Clios or what ever !!!! which I believe gives more of an overall feel for the 'Touring car' type of set up.

My main concern is for how many will stay with the sport for sports sake if they dont get their expected prize drive - most are only interested in being no 1 and go off to do other things when they fail ! we need people to stay in racing, have fun what ever the results so that the oppurtunities for the good ones remain posibilities.

In 33 years I have taken part in all the variations of Touring cars (except super tourers onward - Super Production only) thru Group 1 , Group 1 1/2 and Group A with a modicom of success compared to what I had available , it can't be done now purely due to cost - as a total number of races it was not that many but I did meet and compete against some well known people (2 of which ended up in F1) who were prepared to mix it with us club drivers and enjoyed the races for the sake of racing. Ego's did not come in to it. Does not happen today - lets get some fun back which is what the BARC SE have got with the Dunlop Track and Road Saloon Championship.

When all you budding superstars decide to give up on the unattainable, stay in racing, support the next generation and an industry that politics seems to want to ignore. Hopefully Championships like the DTR will still exist. us old 'uns can't have all the fun can we - wouldn't be fair !!!!!!!!!!

Dont forget you have to be in it to win it

Eddy V · 24 Oct 2006, 07:32 (Ref:1747120)

Well Barry, that is well said. And spot on as well.
The fun has been long gone with most of the modern up-and-coming drivers. One of the reasons I stopped chasing points when I was still racing, was that reason.
After I realised that, I had so much fun racing seeing my collegues working their *** off to come first. Me? I just did my thing in such a relaxed way that I sometimes even marshalled between practice and race.
Made them go

and I had already nearly won the thing there and then.

If you haven't got the masses of money, you will never make it. Sad, but true.

racer-gal · 24 Oct 2006, 16:42 (Ref:1747810)

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry barnes

T Cars offer over their competitors is not guaranteeing anything plus it is the most expensive of the 3.

Dont forget you have to be in it to win it

not true. depends who you run with and HOW you run it. the 1st FULL year we did in tcars cost us 15K, i spoke to someone in saxmax and they've spent over 40K so far this year!!!

although i do agree with that last comment.

hometune · 24 Oct 2006, 17:33 (Ref:1747869)

Look out T-Cars. I read in motorsports now under the rule changes section that a new series is ready for 2007.

Junior Autocross- " a type of event which is very affordable".

Just think what your budgets could buy you there. Guaranteed success

Seriously though, What happens with this continual creation of more and more series aimed at junior competitors. Soon, if your not winning races and championships by the time your 16 you'll be written off and this will lead to lower competitor numbers as those who don't see a future in motorsport go off to other things. ( as Barry has said already).

Why can't juniors be allowed to race in existing series? Is it to protect the juniors or to protect those at the front of existing series?

racer-gal · 24 Oct 2006, 18:13 (Ref:1747918)

the 3 series have a different way of driving the car, so the "juniors" dont think 'o, this is how all cars will handle all the time'

as ive been told u can throw a tcar around quite a bit, where as u have to be really smooth with a ginetta junior

lucianobacheta · 24 Oct 2006, 18:25 (Ref:1747927)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer-gal

the 3 series have a different way of driving the car, so the "juniors" dont think 'o, this is how all cars will handle all the time'

as ive been told u can throw a tcar around quite a bit, where as u have to be really smooth with a ginetta junior

Yeah. But you cant, it doesnt matter what car it is, you dont just throw it around.

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