Wiliiams to use Toyota power in 2007 but not as a customer? How does it work?

[NO1SPECIAL]

OK the strong rumour is that Williams will use toyota engines in 2007 but SFW has said before that they will not be using customer engines. My question is how do these two "facts" gel? In other words can they use toyota engines and NOT be a customer?

And if they do use toyota, we know Toyota is pouring a heap of money into their own team - are williams gonna get the same treatment?

[Adam43]

By not a customer engine Williams probably mean one, some or all of a few things;
That they will have the same specification as Toyota.
That they will not be paying for the engines.
That they will be involved in the devleopment of the engine.

Such arrangements are rare, but not unheard of in motorsport. Obviously there are practical reasons why two teams won't get exactly the same engines all the time, but generally it is possible. We have had Jordan and BAR with Honda engines and a few years before that there were Lotus and Williams with Honda engines also. To differing degrees all can be considered works deals.

Will they get the same treatment. Maybe, maybe not. Yes and No.

[ASCII Man]

I don't think they will be getting a full 'works' treatment, more like a 'partnership' deal I think, regular engine upgrades but one or two steps behind the factory team, I guess...

Well, basically what the dude above me said...

[Tf105]

This year the toyota engines proved thier reliabilty and abilty to run for more than 2 races..so Toyota is going to give Williams all their used engines from 2005 after they do the 2 cylinder disabling procedure so that Williams will have a competitve engine and since the engines were given to them they do not become a customer.... and it is also interesting that the used 2 cylinder down toyota engies will be more competitive than wthe williams engines of 2005

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by NO1SPECIAL

OK the strong rumour is that Williams will use toyota engines in 2007 but SFW has said before that they will not be using customer engines. My question is how do these two "facts" gel? In other words can they use toyota engines and NOT be a customer?

And if they do use toyota, we know Toyota is pouring a heap of money into their own team - are williams gonna get the same treatment?

SFW has used customer engines before (Mechachrome for instance) and will have to do it again from 2007 unless Toyota was to pull out its team from f1 from that year.

[Marbot]

Perhaps Williams will be using Toyotas V10 in restricted form in 2007.And who knows,perhaps they'll be sharing engines with Minardi next season.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Originally Posted by Louis B.

SFW has used customer engines before (Mechachrome for instance) and will have to do it again from 2007 unless Toyota was to pull out its team from f1 from that year.

It wouldn't require Toyota pulling out for them to supply Williams in 2007. Afterall, if Wiliams are one or two engine steps behind the factory team (which would be likely) the people in Japan might be tempted with the chance of getting four Toyota/Lexus powered cars into the top five at a few races.

[NO1SPECIAL]

ok, so why are people down on the cosworth deal but looking forward to toyota?? sounds to me like they'd be better sticking with cosworth.

i can't believe williams would accept a downspec toyota engine - if they do they've got no hope of being competitive - only level pegging would suffice.
So to my way of thinking it's gotta be same spec or the rumoured toyota deal is false.

maybe hyundai, or some other new manufacturer - is a real possibility?

[Tf105]

that'll be interesting.... Williams switching from BMW to LEXUS... that would do something for toyota's efforts to invade the european market

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Silk Cut Jaguar

It wouldn't require Toyota pulling out for them to supply Williams in 2007. Afterall, if Wiliams are one or two engine steps behind the factory team (which would be likely) the people in Japan might be tempted with the chance of getting four Toyota/Lexus powered cars into the top five at a few races.

Highly unlikely.

Are you or anyone else aware of any precedent of a team owned by a manufacturer who would supply FREE engines to a competitor??? I am not. Sauber always had to pay to get older or "same" specs engines. Renault was not running a team when it was supplying both Williams and Benneton with free engines. Honda stopped supplying Jordan as they become more and more commited toward BAR, etc.

The reason for that is simple: a manufacturer does not want to run the risk of being outperformed by another team running one of its own engines unless it makes sense moneywise. The manufacturer's reputation would also take a serious blow if that other team was doing so running an older generation engine. This is why one has to pay a fair amount of money if he wants to use the same or older machinery of a team owned by an engine manufacturer.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by NO1SPECIAL

ok, so why are people down on the cosworth deal but looking forward to toyota?? sounds to me like they'd be better sticking with cosworth.

i can't believe williams would accept a downspec toyota engine - if they do they've got no hope of being competitive - only level pegging would suffice.
So to my way of thinking it's gotta be same spec or the rumoured toyota deal is false.

maybe hyundai, or some other new manufacturer - is a real possibility?

Unfortunately, Cosworth has been financially struggling (except for the period it was owned by Ford) for quite many years while Toyota can invest tons of money on the R&D of its engines.

A Toyota engine, eventhough not of the latest generation, is more likely to give comfort to sponsors (who know little about the sport) than a Cosworth. Toyota might also be about to ditch its f1 team such that to start with them as client may be a way to be at the the right place at the right moment should they elect to pull out the plug on their owned team while remaining simply involved in engine manufacturing.

The reality is that Williams are presently going through very hard times such that they are buying time looking for the best performance/cost deal in the hope that a new manufacturer (could be Hyundai) or buyer (could be Irvine with Hyundai) will soon manifest itself. I would be trying to sell my shares, at discount if need be, if I were SFW or PH.

[mac]

If Williams 2007 engines are badged Lexus, I have no doubt that the engine deal will be a FULL WORKS DEAL.

Lexus is mounting a concerted push to challenge BMW and Mercedes in Europe (see new IS250) - an F1 team to challenge them is almost all they are lacking.

Also, there is no way Toyota would do a deal with Williams that would involve Lexus naming, and then give them lesser engines.

Can you imagine a bog standard Toyota constantly whooping the premium brand Lexus???

There is no way Toyota would stand for that. The only way such an arrangement would work is if both teams are competitive with each other.

Also, could Frank's decision to switch to Bridgestone be an attempt to win over Toyota heavies in Japan (known to favour a move to the company)?

[Valve Bounce]

Originally Posted by Tf105

that'll be interesting.... Williams switching from BMW to LEXUS... that would do something for Toyota's efforts to invade the european market

This seems to be the most logical suggestion. With the parting of BMW, Williams now have a very valuable commodity to offer to any future sponsor: The joint name on their car. A Williams Lexus will make a lot of sense, and as Frank seems intent to maintain a very strong driver pairing, it could be a winning combination. Perhaps that is the reason Frank will not let the Bunsen wriggle free from his contract.

Any wins by a Williams Lexus will in no way detract from the Team Toyota whatsoever, but will enhance the image of Lexus. There have been very strong rumours that Williams has been waiting before announcing their engine supplier for next year to see whether Jordan can pay for theirs. Rumours suggest that Jordan is behind in their payments this year.

Just some background information here. My neighbours (an elderly couple) has just traded in their Mercedes for a Lexus ES300, and I asked their son which car was better. The answer was the Lexus without doubt, as it was more sporty whereas the Mercedes was more suited to an old couple. The Lexus was also more comfortable, and for a slightly lower price, it even offered as standard equipment some extras which Mercedes would charge a lot for. So I think this is a great opportunity for Williams to upgrade their engine supplier from BMW.

And one last thing: it would give the Toyota company a two pronged attack on rivals Honda.

[Louis B.]

Mac & Valve Bounce:

I would be curious to know if something akin to the the Lexus / Toyota scenario you are suggesting has occurred in the past. To me, it doesn't make sense, on a marketing point of view, to incurr millions of dollars in R&D designing your own f1 car & engine and running your own team while seeing someone else using your engine free of charge winning with a car not designed by you!!! Lexus is not marketing its cars primarily on the basis of their engine but on their luxury & design.

I could conceive Toyota's f1 team changing its name for Lexus powered by Toyota engines while lower specs Toyota engine being supplied to Williams for free. I still find this very unlikely though.

[SRabbit]

you have to remember though that an engine is not the be-all and end-all of a fast car. you can be sitting in front of a monster running at 35,000 rpm but if your chassis/aero/driver/suspension/cooling/exhaust system/gearbox/component relibility....you get the drift....isnt right then forget it. For 1 company to be represented by 2 brands ( Toyota & Lexus ) makes sound marketing sense to me, and i am fairly comfortable making the statement that Ralf likes to have his car set up different to Mark - two different teams would have two different philosophies about how to make a car quick, so I see it as win-win alround

[Valve Bounce]

Originally Posted by Louis B.

Mac & Valve Bounce:

I would be curious to know if something akin to the the Lexus / Toyota scenario you are suggesting has occurred in the past. To me, it doesn't make sense, on a marketing point of view, to incurr millions of dollars in R&D designing your own f1 car & engine and running your own team while seeing someone else using your engine free of charge winning with a car not designed by you!!! Lexus is not marketing its cars primarily on the basis of their engine but on their luxury & design.

I could conceive Toyota's f1 team changing its name for Lexus powered by Toyota engines while lower specs Toyota engine being supplied to Williams for free. I still find this very unlikely though.

Your second paragraph appears (to me) to be in conflict with the last sentence of your first paragraph. :confused:

You really must decide first of all whether it is beneficial for Lexus to gain any benefit for their Luxury cars before going any further with your suggesting that Lexus should be the prime objective of the company's racing policy and reducing the mighty (in sales) Toyota name to crappy second spec racers.

[Kicking-back]

I can't believe the Lexus name will be used.

Toyota will not want its two brands competing against each other in F1.

[FPV GTHO]

What other possibilites other than Lexus and Toyota are there? TRD perhaps?

I can understand them using Lexus to capitalise with Williams formerly associated with BMW, and to lessen the association with the factory team, but with anything theres the question over will they get the same engines at the same time. If Williams are willing to pay enough or cotribute enough, i cant see a reason why that wouldnt happen.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Louis B.

To incurr millions of dollars in R&D designing your own f1 car & engine and running your own team while seeing someone else using your engine free of charge winning with a car not designed by you!!!

That's not the point at all. With two top teams doing engine development work, there is a greater chance that the engine will be successful.

Also, rather than giving Toyota two bites at the cherry, it could have four cars with a genuine chance to win races - much better than the usual two.

Originally Posted by Louis B.

Lexus is not marketing its cars primarily on the basis of their engine but on their luxury & design.

So do Mercedes-Benz, but they are still in F1.

If Lexus wants to take on BMW and Mercedes-Benz, it has to convince buyers that the cars are just as, if not more luxurious, stylish and good to drive.

Originally Posted by Louis B.

I could conceive Toyota's f1 team changing its name for Lexus powered by Toyota engines while lower specs Toyota engine being supplied to Williams for free. I still find this very unlikely though.

Would never happen. For a start Toyota views Lexus and itself as two separate companies, in the vain of Mercedes-Benz and Chrysler. They are just owned by the same company. As a result, you would never have the crossing of the two brands in the one entity - a Lexus Toyota if you will.

Also, Toyota will always head up the company's racing operations as this is the volume seller - hell, Lexus does not even currently exist in Japan.

I think it makes fantastic sense, but could only work if the two teams were comparable on pace and results.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by mac

I think it makes fantastic sense, but could only work if the two teams were comparable on pace and results.

Why then would Steven and Marjory Punter buy a Lexus - if the image the racing programme gives is that it's comparable with a (cheaper) Toyota?

[Sultan]

The TRD link is an interesting one, don't forget something similar was done a few years ago with Honda/Mugen...

[Valve Bounce]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Why then would Steven and Marjory Punter buy a Lexus - if the image the racing programme given is that it's comparable with a (cheaper) Toyota?

Because the bloody Lexus has beaten BMW and Mercedes. Does this not create an image? We are talking about Lexus taking on BMW and Mercedes. not Toyota!!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Sultan

The TRD link is an interesting one, don't forget something similar was done a few years ago with Honda/Mugen...

That isn't quite the same though. Mugen isn't a rival road car manufacturer like Honda.

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

What other possibilites other than Lexus and Toyota are there? TRD perhaps?

Toyota and Toyota. I think that they will use the same name in both, if htey do it.

[NO1SPECIAL]

Is there any history of manufacturers supplying teams with their best engines (when they already have their own team in F1) and NOT requiring payment? but SFW said they would not be a customer, which presumably means they will not pay...

So maybe to push the Lexus brand is the only reason they would consider it.

[BSchneiderFan]

Just a thought, but did not Renault supply Lotus with works engines in the mid-80s while still running a factory Renault team?