Special Saloons - the post 1975 (ish) cars

[Jeremy Jackson]

Karmann Ghia was driven by Dave Enderby, based on a Tiga S2000 chassis.

Silver & red Fiesta was Alan Smith's. Definitely raced in Wendy Wools in 1983, as was Viv Wallace's silver/purple Aalco Metro, not sure about before then though.

[driftwood]

no one answered the question of who had baby bertha after gerry
yes paul haywood halfpenny had it for a while but phil barak used it for a few years in MN gt series at donington
its now owned by Joe ward and driven by Gerry on demo events for Vauxhall -sadly not the correct engine installed but looking great in original livery

daff 33 rebuild is half done chassis rebuild nearly complete

where is the Imp 2 litre BDG car the rob mason drove for george bevan?
this car was originally raced by tony dickinson? with 1300 bda had march corners
the amzing thing about the superloons is they used road car shells
the later cars where space frames or sports cars or even f2 /f5000 chassis with bodies fitted and often these had sports car bodies for donington gt series as it was harder to justify a saloon car shape with rules demanding engine still being in the "correct" place

[ian.stewart]

This thread is getting the old grey cells working, Just after I finished my engineering apprenticeship, my friend asked me to come over to where he worked to have a look at his new "TOY" Turned out to be a semi space framed frazer imp, He also boasted to have got George Bevan out of retirement to build him an engine so he could compete in the Wendy Wools/Kent Messenger special/super saloon series, the engine was a good little thing, but the car not proved not to be very competitive, and was quickly was superseded by a ex Simon Sable Davrian based imp, this was the 1000cc lap record holder at Brands, This met its demise at Lyddon in a wendywools when trying to take the lead on the last lap ran wide and ran head on into Mabbs[sp] Bank, end of No2 imp, now for a change, a spaced framed VW Scirocco turned up in the garage, the Imp engine was fitted north south into the Scirroco, the car looked the spaniels spuds, and handled like a bag of spuds on a roller skate, I don’t think it even finished a race, then Doc Embury turned up with his Imp based Karmen Ghia, the thing wiped the floor with everything that tried to race it, we bailed out of the small class saloons, sold off the VW and the engine,
Along came a VW Variant fast back, I cant remember who built it but it was built around a March Formula 5000 tub, offset 2" to comply with the rules, The engine was a Iron Small block Chevy, 383 cid, with Donovan heads, and Lucas slide injection., come the 1st available test Wednesday afternoon at Brands, thought it would have a test, Mmmmmmm, within 20 mins the engine was in the sump, A few weeks earlier I had been around a workshop where there was a Donovan Chevy head being welded up due to having dropped a valve, Putting 2 & 2 together we worked out the heads were the ones fitted to our engine, and had either burst or dropped a valve at 7K+ along the main straight, plenty of shrapnel, not an item worth saving from the engine bar the injection, now started phase 2, I turned up at the garage and there was a new engine sitting on the floor, A PROPPER engine, All Alloy Big Block Chevy on Kinsler FI, the rocker covers said SURTEES in black and silver, and indeed the block was stamped #Surtees001, this was an ex Can Am engine, I think it was bought from Mick Hill for about I think, £1200, I wish I could buy another one for that today Now being the cautious type, it was decided to get the engine rebuilt, just freshen up, just to stop another catastrophic failure, as we were heading down the seriously skint route.
The car was sent away to the Roll Centre I think to optimise the suspension settings, only after having had the car set up only to find the tyres the car was set up with, don’t exist any more and are unobtainable, deep joy, Meanwhile the engine is removed and sent out to an "Engine Builder" The engine was fitted back in the car and taken down to Brands, no probs, the car fired up on the button , got 50ft down the pit lane and went tight, the engine went back to the builder for a check over, and came back a week later, exactly the same thing happened again, engine builder was told to get his act together, as we were racing the car in front of some potential sponsors that weekend, I think the engine turned up Saturday night, and a midnight thrash was required to get it ready for the race.
Turned up early for Practice, fired the car up, scrutinizing, and drove thru the tunnel, and at about the same place as before, the engine went tight again. That was the end of our foray into the thunder saloons, as finances dictated a rest form playing cars. it turns out, the engine builder had never seen a dry sump pump like the one we had, and managed to plumb it up incorrectly, the car was put into a council lock up, and I never heard of it again until I saw a feature in CCC about 10-12 years ago, dunno what happened to it after that,
BTW, for al you nostalgia heads out there, I have just found my copy of CCC dated October 74, on the cover it shows 15 thunder saloons on a dummy grid on the cover and a 7 page feature on all the runners and riders.
Ian

[ian.stewart]

Sorry to bore you all Thunder Saloons fans, Does anyone remember a a mini that used to race in Wendy Wools or Kent Messenger Special Saloons that was Powered by a 1000,, twin cylinder engine, that I beleive was half a BDG, never heard such a strange sounding engine, and I dont think it was that slow either.
Ian

[big andy]

i think it was peter day and it was a 850 not a 1000 it was half a BDA the engine later went into a fiat 850 coupe

[Alan Raine]

The Mini was written off in an accident at Siverstone. I was marshalling on the wall coming into Becketts. For some reason Peter Day lost it coming out of Maggots and ending rolling along the top of the sleepers. I did'nt stay there long! When it all stopped the steering wheel was poking through where the windscreen had been. The engine then went into the Fiat. Very fast and very noisy.

[big andy]

tony sugdens skoda was a home built tub with march f2 front suspension chevron rear he no longer owens the car he sold it to chris crawford

[chunterer]

Some great info on here guys!

Racing 59, in late 2003 when i was researching some old special saloons, the Kitten was loacked away in a shed so yues it still very much exists. They might nedd some persuasion to get it out as their Jade supersports was their main project and the Kitten requires a strip down and a bit of attention. Hope that helps? You'd best get in touch with them to get the full SP though.

Couple of other cars that would be nice and relevant are the Grp 5 320 that is the subject of Ian Becketts thread, the one that Brian Chatfield has/had?

Also Terry Nicholls Gartrac Capri, that he ran in special saloons and then thunder saloons. I have a feeling this was an ex Stuart Graham Grp 1 car that he 'caniballised' yet still ended up with a pretty gorgeous racer. It's either in the middle of a restoration by one of Ric Woods customers or it's in the middle of someone's back garden?! Someone will know i'm sure!

Then there's that excellent Escort RSBDG that the Minton brothers ran in the 80's, then brought it back into competition a few years later for the Northern Sports Saloons after a shunt enduced rebuild?, or did someone like Rod Birley or Julian Swayland buy it?

The one that Bob Trotter ran with a Rover V8 was massively quick as well.

Either way those 2 Escorts would be good entries?

[Ted Walker]

I beleive that Vince Woodman still has his GA Capri. The ex Mick Hill beetle still exists as I was talking with the owner at the NEC last weekend

[Alan Raine]

These might of interest to some of you. They were taken on early in the morning at Siverstone in 1975.

The John Turner Skoda


The Bill Cox Capri


Doug Nivens Capri


Geoff Woods Escort

[R59]

Originally Posted by chunterer

His 'Black Thunder' 7.0 Sierra would though - the one he shared with Geoff Farmer in 1990/91? Dunno if that's still around.

Black Thunder, which started off life as the "Porsche Sierra" is now the mid-engined beastie that Michael Blomfield runs in the NW Sports/Saloons.
There's very little of the original car left (shame - I liked Black Thunder!)

Originally Posted by chunterer

Other cars that are worth tracking down assuming that they haven't been broken up and returned to original single seater/sportscar profile are things like:

Tony Davies Transpeed Firenza
The Jim Mensley Honda Legend
The ex Brodie/Birley Starion
The 'Stars and Sripes' Manta-Chevy that Nick Oatway pedalled
The Ecosse Manta that Hugh Chalmers and David Leslie ran nicknamed 'Bendy Bus'

The ex-Brodie/Birley Starion was stolen, with it's trailer, from Brands Hatch, in 1990 (or was it 91 Rod?) If you know where it is, I'm sure Rod would love to know!

Stars & Stripes, mmmmmmmm, did I read correctly - it's being/has been rebuilt?

What I need are some real contacts with these people. Those of you that know where they are, can you give me details (by PM please) of who to contact (numbers, email, etc..)

I'm still trying to get hold of Pete Stevens ('The' Carlton).

It's a real shame about Pete Baldwin's Baby BDA Mini, in a glass case, tsk tsk!
Racing cars are for racing.

Rob.

[superloonbeetle]

I bought Mick Hill's car from Keith Norris, which is currently in pieces, and was planning to re-build it over a couple of years. But this may be too good an oppotunity to miss. I am seeking help also in the form of any photographs that are available. Also if anybody could recommend any restorers that may understand or appreciate this car

[superloonbeetle]

Hi Andy. My car is without any doubt the "Mick Hill" Car and without any doubt the "donor" car was a F5000 car. However no part of the F5000 chassis was or is used. Thanks for the reference to those photographs by the way. Incidentally the one from "photo box" shows quite clearly the Chevy motor and DG300 bolted to the "beetle". Although work is at early stage ( we still hope to be out in August/September? ) I reside at Newark ( not far from "Donny" ) you would be quite welcome to visit and chat. Best regards Martin

Originally Posted by big andy

s/s/b if your car is the original mick hill car then im sorry but it is a f5000 car and not a vw beetle

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by MiniMadness

Was this the 'Stratos' that was originally raced by John Churchill ? I think he raced in the Transnational GT's.

I think it was a different car - not 100 % on that though.

Churchill's 'Stratos' ran a DFV didn't it? and he also entered it against the Tiga's and Spice's in BRDC C2?

Sounds like there could be a fair few Escort derivatives out there in August folks?

[peter thurston]

As far as I know the cummings car was an ex churchill car and was based on a march f2 ground effects car similar to the one he purchased from me. The beetle WHAT A CAR!!! I remember it well when garry raced it,or should I say coasted to another win unless Mick's old M1 turned up driven by dave shepherd.Ignore all the moaners on here these sort of cars are the stuff of dreams. I am forever amazed that these cars have no value yet if it is a car that the factory built in small numbers they are worth fortunes. Each and every individuals enterpretation of what was a special saloon to me is far more interesting.

[rcarr]

Originally Posted by MiniMadness

Was this the 'Stratos' that was originally raced by John Churchill ? I think he raced in the Transnational GT's.

I think the one you are thinking of is a white argo based group c/6 style one?

Last I saw of that was in the racecarwarehouse.co.uk in Brighton for sale!

http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-08-photo.html

http://www.racecarwarehouse.co.uk/ click on competition cars

Argo!

http://www.davie.e7even.com/Ron%20Cumming.htm

this is the ron cumming one, later my Dad owned the body, now owned by David Smaill in Glasgow who also owns the AC3000 too!

Ron's car was basically a early 80s March F2 car, with BMW Hart engine in it, still a central driving position! By about 92' single seater super saloons were banned from SMRC racing, because of this car!

[carrera]

First Thundersaloon race was at Brands Hatch 17th March 1985. It was won by Vince Woodman/Jonathan Buncombe in a 3.4 litre Capri. Runner-up was Rod Birley/John Brindley in an Escort. 3rd Tony and John Davies in the Firenza.

Last Thundersaloon race was in 1994 IIRC.

[Thundersports]

Mike Chittenden had a very rapid MK2 Escort with a Cosworth Turbo engine, does anyone remember him being on the front row at Brands 1991 I think, alongside Steven's Carlton and hanging on round the outside at Paddock and Druids on the first lap to take the lead going in to Graham Hill bend? A great car that was destroyed at Snetterton that year when the throttle stock open going in to the first corner causing Fred Taylor who was driving to have a huge shunt. The Carlton is in a private collection I think?
The legend was sold to Ron Cumming after John Woolfe had to retire from racing. Good luck with the proposed meeting.

[R59]

The Carlton is still in the hands of Pete Stevens. He had it rebuilt at Vauxhall's expence (so the rumour has it) for the Goodwood Festival of Speed a few years ago.
I remember the Escort - yes it was banzai quick, but fragile and had hairy handling.
As I understand it, yes Ron had the Legend.

The way things are going in the Track & Race Cars series, it's turning into Thundersaloons via the back door! Just that the races are much shorter, and it costs very little to enter!

Rob.

[Nordic]

http://www.staggering.info/

The Stag Lives!!!

News of another old modsport/Churchill GT car being put back together.

[kurtiejjj]

Thinking of buying this escort Mk2, only who's car was it originally? and anyone know what engine it had originally? Still haven't had an email reply from the owner but as I'm eager to find out more I thought I post here.

[kurtiejjj]

it was from the tricentrol super saloon chammpionship however I have not found any photos on the web, anyone who does have any?

[AMICALEMANS]

hi !
Is somebody can explain, the regulation of building a Super Saloon during the end of the 70 ? Why drivers choose body like Skoda or VW ?

[Dan Rear]

Rear engined cars, so you could put a shell onto a sportsracer very easily, or build a car around a Formula car. The regs specified you had to have the engine in the same place as on the road car it was 'loosely' based on. Hence rear-engined road cars like the Skoda/VW/Lotus Esprit etc became popular.

[Alan Raine]

Basically the engine had to be in the same position as the original car and the Silhouette from the side had to be the same (or similar).

This was probably it's downfall. If they only accepted front engined cars, the converted 2 litre sports cars and single seaters which killed it wouldn't have been allowed.