The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Dario911

My opinion about Gené is not for his crash in testing, but for his fair play. He was trying to get out Audis past season.

So you are saying that he should have ignored the request from the team to block the Audis?

Gene might not have been the most fastest driver at Peugeot, but he was very consistent. That is why he won Le Mans in 2009.

Originally Posted by Dario911

Anyway I would have preferred Bourdais.

Audi did not have a lot of choice for a replacement driver for Bernhard. It was either Gene or Montagny. All the other Peugeot drivers already had another drive for Le Mans.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I found out that detailed timing information of the race can be downloaded at http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...lysis_Race.CSV. Using that data, I quickly calculated the top speed of every LMP1 car during the race (median of last 100 laps).

• Audi #1: 295.1 km/h
• Audi #2: 293.5 km/h
• Audi #3: 297.5 km/h
• Audi #4: 296.7 km/h
• Rebellion #12: 272.0 km/h
• Rebellion #13: 274.1 km/h
• Oak #15: 267.3 km/h
• Dome #17: 278.4 km/h
• Strakka HPD #21: 272.0 km/h
• JRM HPD #22: 282.7 km/h

10 km/h difference between the two HPDs? Were Strakka running much more downforce to keep Leventis on the track?

[lms]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

10 km/h difference between the two HPDs? Were Strakka running much more downforce to keep Leventis on the track?

no diveplanes on the jrm car might be he cause of the top speed difference

[gwyllion]

John Dagys also has a short article about Toyota's explanation for the recent setback: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...c-debrief-spa/

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Do you really believe that Audi have more 70bhp than Toyota? Assuming a 560 to 590 bhp to Audi, will Toyota only have 490 to 520 bhp???? I don´t believe in that. Even if Audi are close to 600-610 bhp Toyota only have 530-540 bhp!!!!

Well lets await for performance break by ACO, (Toyota will not have any break because they don´t race right?), will the Audi's slow down, or the others will have a boost?

The sporting regulations state that the slowest technology will be made faster. So normally petrol cars will get some performance breaks (bigger restrictor, less weight, ...).

The ACO/FIA makes in decision based on the average lap time during the race.

The average lap time will be calculated over the number of laps corresponding to 20% of the distance of the races (average of the best laps).

I quickly made that calculation for all LMP1 cars at Spa:

• Audi #1: 2:05.1
• Audi #2: 2:05.9
• Audi #3: 2:05.0
• Audi #4: 2:05.2
• Rebellion #12: 2:08.7
• Rebellion #13: 2:09.0
• Oak #15:2:10.5
• Dome #17: 02:10.3
• Strakka HPD #21: 2:09.6
• JRM HPD #22: 2:10.5

The difference in performance between the fastest diesel and petrol is 3.7 seconds, which means 3%.

I will try to do the same calculations for Sebring, because a difference of 2% must be observed during two WEC races.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Not fast enough. Safe but slow.

Brabham has done very good seasons with Acura, and has shown to be as fast as consistent. I've never had a great opinion about Gené. Maybe 'cause I've seen an insane aggressivity in the past season, instead of a sane competition.
Anyway, sunday he's done a very good race. I would have liked Wurz with Audi, but Toyota has been faster.

This year Le Mans will be boring in P1, so I think the most of the show will be from the lower classes.
Toyota is late with its program, so this year will be only to measure their possibilities to win in a short time. Pug has debuted in 2007, but waited until 2009 to win. I'm curious about Toyota wait for the win. Hoping for a different finale than the GT-One experience...
Toyota has often designed fast and good cars, but never had its occasion as in happened in 1998 and 1999.
Since the first pictures, TS030 Hybrid has changed very much, expecially in the front part, that has been deeply revised. The tail has been rivesed too, expecially for the rear wing endplate. Many solutions have been derived by Audi R18.
Toyota has worked very much on aerodynamic, but I hope they are on the right way with hybrid system. Last news about a failure in designing are a real alert for jappo team. One month to Le Mans, I don't think they have the time to solve structural troubles (if voices about hybrid system failure are true...).
If the voices about a lack of power in their car are also true... things will only be harder!
Next year, I would be glad to see Toyota and its wonderful TS030 on the highest step of the podium.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by lms

no diveplanes on the jrm car might be he cause of the top speed difference

Jrm ran le mans downforce packed in qualy.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The sporting regulations state that the slowest technology will be made faster. So normally petrol cars will get some performance breaks (bigger restrictor, less weight, ...).

The ACO/FIA makes in decision based on the average lap time during the race.

I quickly made that calculation for all LMP1 cars at Spa:

• Audi #1: 2:05.1
• Audi #2: 2:05.9
• Audi #3: 2:05.0
• Audi #4: 2:05.2
• Rebellion #12: 2:08.7
• Rebellion #13: 2:09.0
• Oak #15:2:10.5
• Dome #17: 02:10.3
• Strakka HPD #21: 2:09.6
• JRM HPD #22: 2:10.5

The difference in performance between the fastest diesel and petrol is 3.7 seconds, which means 3%.

I will try to do the same calculations for Sebring, because a difference of 2% must be observed during two WEC races.

Nice work Gwyllion!

[kurski]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Toyota has often designed fast and good cars, but never had its occasion as in happened in 1998 and 1999.

Pascal Vasselon said earlier that should not be Toyota TS030 car to compered Andre de Cortanze designing the Toyota GT-One car, But hopefully the current Toyota winner of car in the future.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The sporting regulations state that the slowest technology will be made faster. So normally petrol cars will get some performance breaks (bigger restrictor, less weight, ...).

The ACO/FIA makes in decision based on the average lap time during the race.

I quickly made that calculation for all LMP1 cars at Spa:

• Audi #1: 2:05.1
• Audi #2: 2:05.9
• Audi #3: 2:05.0
• Audi #4: 2:05.2
• Rebellion #12: 2:08.7
• Rebellion #13: 2:09.0
• Oak #15:2:10.5
• Dome #17: 02:10.3
• Strakka HPD #21: 2:09.6
• JRM HPD #22: 2:10.5

The difference in performance between the fastest diesel and petrol is 3.7 seconds, which means 3%.

I will try to do the same calculations for Sebring, because a difference of 2% must be observed during two WEC races.

Thanks

[Adam43]

Thanks for putting that together for us gwyllion.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by kurski

Pascal Vasselon said earlier that should not be Toyota TS030 car to compered Andre de Cortanze designing the Toyota GT-One car, But hopefully the current Toyota winner of car in the future.

Andre de Cortanze was the chief designer of Toyota GT-One, that was inspired by some fluidodynamic of the F-16. It was a great car, but its exasperated aerodynamic was also its limit. The punctures that stopped its race to the win, were caused by an high slipstream of its aerodynamic shape, in the front as in in the back.
It was the car to beat, but was beaten by itself. Sad epilogue for one of the most advanced cars in LM last two decades.
I've never understood the structure of Toyota Motorsport. From Germany to Japan is quite hard to coordinate a project so ambitious as GT-One was, and TS030 is nowadays.
I hope to see a big match in 2014 between Audi, Toyota and Porsche. Hoping to see Ferrari in LMP1 too. A match between Porsche and Ferrari in Le Mans may obscure an entire Formula 1 championship. A WEC edition with the two most important and rapresentative brands in motorsport, would be the top for all of us!
Maybe I'm wrong... but I feel Ferrari will back in the scuffle. I don't now when, or any other detail. Is just a suggestion of mine. But I think it will return. Le Mans and WEC are getting more interesting than Formula 1, and Ferrari, as well as the Porsche, is following the hybrid way. May be they'll be interested to face their archrival, Porsche, in the most important race of all.
Story always repeats.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I quickly made that calculation for all LMP1 cars at Spa:

• Audi #1: 2:05.1
• Audi #2: 2:05.9
• Audi #3: 2:05.0
• Audi #4: 2:05.2
• Rebellion #12: 2:08.7
• Rebellion #13: 2:09.0
• Oak #15:2:10.5
• Dome #17: 02:10.3
• Strakka HPD #21: 2:09.6
• JRM HPD #22: 2:10.5

The difference in performance between the fastest diesel and petrol is 3.7 seconds, which means 3%.

I will try to do the same calculations for Sebring, because a difference of 2% must be observed during two WEC races.

A similar calculation for Sebring.

• Audi #1: 1:49.8
• Audi #2: 1:49.8
• Audi #3: 1:50.3
• Muscle Milk HPD #6: 1:51.6
• Rebellion #12: 1:52.8
• Rebellion #13: 1:53.5
• Oak #15: 1:53.5
• Pescarolo #16: 1:54.3
• Strakka HPD #21: 1:53.2
• JRM HPD #22: 1:52.3

That is a difference of 1.8 seconds, which means 1.6%.

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

A similar calculation for Sebring.

• Audi #1: 1:49.8
• Audi #2: 1:49.8
• Audi #3: 1:50.3
• Muscle Milk HPD #6: 1:51.6
• Rebellion #12: 1:52.8
• Rebellion #13: 1:53.5
• Oak #15: 1:53.5
• Pescarolo #16: 1:54.3
• Strakka HPD #21: 1:53.2
• JRM HPD #22: 1:52.3

That is a difference of 1.8 seconds, which means 1.6%.

Hmm, but the best Rebellion was off by 3 seconds, which is 2.7%. Since Muscle Milk is only in the ALMS, makes more sense to compare the Audi to the Rebellion Toyota again. Esp. since Muscle Milk won't show up at Le Mans or any other WEC races.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

Hmm, but the best Rebellion was off by 3 seconds, which is 2.7%. Since Muscle Milk is only in the ALMS, makes more sense to compare the Audi to the Rebellion Toyota again. Esp. since Muscle Milk won't show up at Le Mans or any other WEC races.

Doesn't matter as it's Petrol/Diesel BoP, so it doesn't matter what team which runs it.

[gwyllion]

CTD is right. The WEC sporting regulations clearly state that the fastest car of each propulsion technology will be compared. For Sebring that are #1 Audi (diesel) and #6 Muscle Milk HPD #6 (petrol). And for Spa that are #1 Audi (diesel hybrid), #3 Audi (diesel) and #12 Rebellion (petrol).

I just noticed that according to the rule "an average difference of 2% on these two races must be observed." After the first two WEC rounds, the average difference turns out to be 2.3%. That suggest that the privateer petrol teams are eligible for a small performance adjustment.

However, Toyota will probably not benefit such decision because they use a different propulsion technology (petrol hybrid) and they have not participated in two races.

The models of the cars with the slowest technologies must have participated in at least two races and must have been properly classified in order to be able to benefit from the application of the rule.

[TF110]

Anything new on the test session?

[alexkiller8]

in my opinion, will be wiser to give a weight reduction to petrol lmp1 cars as they did last year for oak pescarolo before le mans (should be something from -15 or -20kg to HPD, lola and dome to -30kg to oak). In this way they'll gain in acceleration, handling, braking and a bit also in top speed too that is crucial at le mans. In my opinion will be pointless to give a restrictor break to make them gain some hp that however will be useless against the shreddring torque of the diesel engine.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

A similar calculation for Sebring.

• Audi #1: 1:49.8
• Audi #2: 1:49.8
• Audi #3: 1:50.3
• Muscle Milk HPD #6: 1:51.6
• Rebellion #12: 1:52.8
• Rebellion #13: 1:53.5
• Oak #15: 1:53.5
• Pescarolo #16: 1:54.3
• Strakka HPD #21: 1:53.2
• JRM HPD #22: 1:52.3

That is a difference of 1.8 seconds, which means 1.6%.

Sorry, did Muscle Milk count??? they don´t participate in the WEC. The closest is Rebellion and they are 3sec slower, is that correct?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

in my opinion, will be wiser to give a weight reduction to petrol lmp1 cars as they did last year for oak pescarolo before le mans (should be something from -15 or -20kg to HPD, lola and dome to -30kg to oak). In this way they'll gain in acceleration, handling, braking and a bit also in top speed too that is crucial at le mans. In my opinion will be pointless to give a restrictor break to make them gain some hp that however will be useless against the shreddring torque of the diesel engine.

Please notice that there isn't any BoP on manufactures. Only propulsion technology!

Weight is much more expensive to remove, than installing a larger restrictor.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Sorry, did Muscle Milk count??? they don´t participate in the WEC. The closest is Rebellion and they are 3sec slower, is that correct?

We just talked about this a few post above .

The team doesn't matter, it's the propulsion which count.
If Muscle Milk can achieve this, then any team should theoretical achieve the same.

[TF110]

It's confusing because everyone but Strakka and JRM at Sebring were using an old car. So how would they base the performance off of that? And isn't it supposed to be two rounds with data covered before they make a change for LeMans? How will they do this as Sebring had every team but the HPD users running old cars? I wonder if they'll just have to go off of Spa's performance difference.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

It's confusing because everyone but Strakka and JRM at Sebring were using an old car. So how would they base the performance off of that? And isn't it supposed to be two rounds with data covered before they make a change for LeMans? How will they do this as Sebring had every team but the HPD users running old cars? I wonder if they'll just have to go off of Spa's performance difference.

Eventhough it was 2011 cars, i believe that the Diesels (Audis) was using the 2012 restrictions. That should make the race eligible for BoP comparisons.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

Weight is much more expensive to remove, than installing a larger restrictor.

Last year the privateers were complaining that the restrictor break before Le Mans can too late and that it was too expensive to implement. As alexkiller8 suggests, the easiest/cheapest change is reduction in the minimum weight for petrol cars. The cars are underweight anyway, so it is just a manner to removing some of the ballast. To give an idea, the HPD used to be a LMP2 car of 775 kg.

Originally Posted by CTD

Eventhough it was 2011 cars, i believe that the Diesels (Audis) was using the 2012 restrictions. That should make the race eligible for BoP comparisons.

Audi ran the old engine with the 2012 restrictor and turbo boost level. The new engine specification that they used at Spa is a clear step forward in performance and fuel consumption.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by CTD

Please notice that there isn't any BoP on manufactures. Only propulsion technology!

Weight is much more expensive to remove, than installing a larger restrictor.

on manufacter car do you say? last year there was, even if i have to admit that last year the situation was different because of mix between new cars and old cars. Are you sure about that? all lmp1 have a dry weight less less than 900kg, the min. weight is reached using weight ballast, it will be just necessary use ligher weight ballast.
Last year oak pescarolo since le mans was running with a min. weight of 890kg at example.