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Old 1 May 2020, 23:23 (Ref:3974032)   #51
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Money has killed TCM.
Cars are more like silhouettes with modern gear in it.
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Old 2 May 2020, 01:05 (Ref:3974040)   #52
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Wow. What is he earning?!!!!!
He has multiple income streams and is a very clever man
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Old 2 May 2020, 02:44 (Ref:3974047)   #53
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Money has killed TCM.
Cars are more like silhouettes with modern gear in it.

Basically this. The category started off with good intentions but the money now needed to compete in the category is insane.
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Old 2 May 2020, 06:40 (Ref:3974058)   #54
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The problem comes when money can be thrown at the problem, and you end up with everyone else either losing or going broke.
Motorsport has always been that way and it was the wealthy who actually started motor sport and kept it going in the amateur era, without them it would have gone nowhere.
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Old 3 May 2020, 00:34 (Ref:3974197)   #55
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Basically this. The category started off with good intentions but the money now needed to compete in the category is insane.
Wasn’t the original intention effectively being able to run sponsorship on Group Nc cars, then slowly things like different parts for reliability purposes got introduced, and it’s evolved into this

The costs might have blown out, but the fields are still generally pretty good
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Old 3 May 2020, 12:18 (Ref:3974241)   #56
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Yep, originally it was a Group N+, but the cars were always log booked as Sports Sedans. That went out the window somewhere around the time Jim Richards raced the Javelin in a spec that not only didn't race, but never existed.
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Old 3 May 2020, 13:36 (Ref:3974254)   #57
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Yep, originally it was a Group N+, but the cars were always log booked as Sports Sedans. That went out the window somewhere around the time Jim Richards raced the Javelin in a spec that not only didn't race, but never existed.

The original justification for TCM (apart from allowing advertising) was supposedly that GpN was too expensive because the cars had to be historically accurate and it would be cheaper to source parts off the shelf.
Allowing an AMC vehicle to run a Dodge Nascar motor because there was no economical way to built up an AMC these days was in retrospect true to that original concept of modern retro looking cars using crate parts.
Far from being offended by the cost of the new Tru-Blu, I just find it ironic that it cost more than a front-running modern touring car. Obviously being a one-off build that had to be a front runner took a lot of time and money. People have spent much more on historic touring car vehicles I know but they at least have historical provenance.
This is a category that is allowing Capris to run Chevs in order to keep the costs down, so cars like the new Tru-Blu send the opposite message to those hoping to get in and compete.
But good luck to them, I have no dog in the fight.
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Old 5 May 2020, 01:55 (Ref:3974532)   #58
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Wow. What is he earning?!!!!!
He is a very very smart and well off fellow. There's no way DJR would have survived to be revived by Mr Penske if not for the personal financial support of Mr Ryan Story.

Please please please go listen to V8 Sleuth's podcast - the Ryan Story and Rusty's Garage for the Roland Dane episodes. Both amazing characters of our sport

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Yep, originally it was a Group N+, but the cars were always log booked as Sports Sedans. That went out the window somewhere around the time Jim Richards raced the Javelin in a spec that not only didn't race, but never existed.
Funny given how he complains about now.

But the Tubbed Torana and XD, and I guess the Commodore as well have taken it too far.

It was a good idea to have modern shapes to appeal to more of an audience the cost is out of control.
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Old 5 May 2020, 12:59 (Ref:3974611)   #59
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Costs out of control, what do you think the costs should be? Do you think there is any way of containing cost for circuit racing in general because I don't. Been there and done that over many years of racing. I wish I could recoup the huge amount of money I spent but I enjoyed every minute of it.
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Old 7 May 2020, 10:52 (Ref:3974895)   #60
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Costs out of control, what do you think the costs should be? Do you think there is any way of containing cost for circuit racing in general because I don't.
The Circuit Excel series seems pretty effective at containing costs. The rules like requiring internally stock engines (can be skimmed if rebuild required), control coil-overs for everyone and cheap 195/50 R15 tyres seem to work very well.
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Old 8 May 2020, 11:18 (Ref:3975075)   #61
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The Circuit Excel series seems pretty effective at containing costs. The rules like requiring internally stock engines (can be skimmed if rebuild required), control coil-overs for everyone and cheap 195/50 R15 tyres seem to work very well.
Look at the HQ series, does it still exist? They were getting more power out of a single carby than Firth was getting out of triples on an XU-1 and that was always going to be a cheap class. You will never get the true story and I will bet the Excel series is no different. There is simply no class that money is not a factor, karting the greta leveller in strict regulation is a prime example. You can run a Formula Vee for less that what some karters spend, it is simply cheque book racing with fathers racing through their sons.

So let's get back to it, reducing costs in SC, give me a hard figure that it should cost to race in the series because no matter what that figure is someone somewhere will have a different one.
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Old 9 May 2020, 01:12 (Ref:3975159)   #62
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Look at the HQ series, does it still exist? They were getting more power out of a single carby than Firth was getting out of triples on an XU-1 and that was always going to be a cheap class. You will never get the true story and I will bet the Excel series is no different. There is simply no class that money is not a factor, karting the greta leveller in strict regulation is a prime example. You can run a Formula Vee for less that what some karters spend, it is simply cheque book racing with fathers racing through their sons.

So let's get back to it, reducing costs in SC, give me a hard figure that it should cost to race in the series because no matter what that figure is someone somewhere will have a different one.
The starting point might be what a sponsor would pay to have naming rights on a single car running at the front of the field for the entire season.
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Old 9 May 2020, 02:15 (Ref:3975164)   #63
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An admirable ambition but in no way does it contain costs and to do so is nigh impossible anyway. To say reduce costs is an open ended statement with no hard goal and no way to achieve it. There is one way though, the teams buy a kit of parts or a built car and run that as sold to them. Limit the number of team members and support equipment and you have the answer. I suspect that going that way would be met with a very firm NO! The rule book would be simple, one page with a do not modify this vehicle in any way written on it.
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Old 9 May 2020, 02:35 (Ref:3975166)   #64
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I suspect that going that way would be met with a very firm NO!
Larry Perkins feels that would make the race teams nothing more than "bolties" who just unbolt things and bolt things together, without any design, engineering or fabrication capability. Does that concern you?

Is the point of motor racing to be able to read the rulebook and design and engineer the best solution to the rulebook, or it is just to have a cost controlled spec series?

IMO, spec designs definitely cause a kind of technical stagnation and prevent the natural evolution of designs that would otherwise happen over time.

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Old 9 May 2020, 07:17 (Ref:3975173)   #65
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The problem is that the Supercars series has never been designed to operate in a time of austerity.
Since the teams became REC holders the whole industry has been built around big teams, big transporters, large television rights, massive corporate suites and governments subsidizing races.
When the money from tv is not there the whole business case falls over.
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Old 9 May 2020, 08:35 (Ref:3975187)   #66
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Larry Perkins feels that would make the race teams nothing more than "bolties" who just unbolt things and bolt things together, without any design, engineering or fabrication capability. Does that concern you?

Is the point of motor racing to be able to read the rulebook and design and engineer the best solution to the rulebook, or it is just to have a cost controlled spec series?

IMO, spec designs definitely cause a kind of technical stagnation and prevent the natural evolution of designs that would otherwise happen over time.
I totally agree, my preference is for a class that allows innovation and free thinking but everyone tells me that is not possible because costs will sky rocket. In fact the Sports Sedans of the 70's & 80's was just that with everyone building radically different cars. You can't have it both ways, either the regs allow innovation which BTW can cost less or tie the class (which ever one) to a very strict regime of rules and SC is actually that now. To get an edge costs thousands of dollars and it would be instantly outlawed. They have tried to make racing theoretically even for everyone but it never works, not now or in the past.
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Old 9 May 2020, 10:34 (Ref:3975210)   #67
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big transporters
Would an open trailer rule do the trick to resolve that issue?


https://youtu.be/exvi6rz5FqY?t=180
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Old 10 May 2020, 02:32 (Ref:3975336)   #68
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Harry Firth could never be accused of spending an unnecessary dollar if he didn't have to.
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Old 10 May 2020, 03:06 (Ref:3975340)   #69
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Harry Firth could never be accused of spending an unnecessary dollar if he didn't have to.
Or Larry Perkins
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Old 11 May 2020, 06:31 (Ref:3975462)   #70
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AJ Foyt towed his own cars to Indianapolis from Texas behind a Ford Galaxie too but I bet they still had a truck carrying all the spares.
Trouble is that is all part of the Supercars image, massive B-doubles with sponsorship down the side criss-crossing the country. Many race competitors in various categories now use transporters so Supercars has to have the biggest and best to keep their status, I realise that.
Unfortunately having the biggest and best also means you spend more than everyone else.
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Old 11 May 2020, 10:09 (Ref:3975486)   #71
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Open trailers don't fix a thing (although they are kinda cool). By time car, trailer & some gear loaded, it's not a light trailer. Then more gear in tow van - end result, fuel consumption not unlike the rigs they run now. Then you'd need two drivers rather than one as two trailers needed, then those vans and trailers wouldn't carry the gear (particularly allowing for pit stops) that is needed these days, so other vans or a truck would be needed.

Then factor in that teams already own (or lease) their B Doubles so trailers, vans, parts truck would all be additional costs, then of course there are the sponsor agreements including exposure benefits from the truck signage that would need to be revalued (down).

All in all - yeah nah.
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Old 11 May 2020, 10:23 (Ref:3975488)   #72
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It’s always necessary to have a trailer that can carry all you need, which is why open trailers aren’t the solution. As you say they can’t carry everything and are harder to operate. You need one that can carry everything safely and effectively. I think the trailers they use now are fine. They do everything they need and we shouldn’t let them go. I do think it’s important not to lose the necessary things
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Old 12 May 2020, 05:20 (Ref:3975630)   #73
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It’s always necessary to have a trailer that can carry all you need, which is why open trailers aren’t the solution.
At the Shannon's Nationals, there were many national level competitors -- such as GT3 Cup -- using open trailers for their Porsches. Many drift and time attack competitors also use open trailers. Open trailers can't be that bad!
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Old 12 May 2020, 06:05 (Ref:3975633)   #74
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At the Shannon's Nationals, there were many national level competitors -- such as GT3 Cup -- using open trailers for their Porsches. Many drift and time attack competitors also use open trailers. Open trailers can't be that bad!
As a club/State level competitor, I towed an open trailer. Gear goes in the racecar, and the back of the tow car. A ute, and now a wagon, was enough for me, but a van would cater for most needs.
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Old 12 May 2020, 09:34 (Ref:3975667)   #75
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I guess it's ok for lower series. It seems to be no more than necessary there. If you're only taking a car that's enough, but a van as you say can carry more
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