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Old 18 May 2020, 16:08 (Ref:3976966)   #26
coppice
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It seems a tad unfair to stick the boot in with such relish and vigour but based only upon allegations made on another forum(stuff on the internet is always true , right ?) ,and on events that may indeed happen , but haven't done so yet . They may be as appalling as you suggest but y'know - innocent until proven guilty ?

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Old 18 May 2020, 16:20 (Ref:3976969)   #27
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Rudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRudernst should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I have sold a few smaller items via H&H in 2018.

I took quite a few emails to actually get the money
all in all 7 weeks after the close of the auction

in the end they paid

not perfect at all
but much much better than some

RuE
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Old 18 May 2020, 20:34 (Ref:3977021)   #28
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Colin McKay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridColin McKay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No excuses, they have their money in the bank within 48 hours and it should be paid out then. Not referring to any auction house in particular but if they need to wait months before paying then perhaps they are technically insolvent, and directors can be held responsible for trading whilst insolvent. However, in the real world......


I have only ever sold a classic at auction once, with Coys and many years ago. Took 3 months and much hassling before they paid, seems old habits die hard.
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Old 18 May 2020, 23:39 (Ref:3977045)   #29
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Paul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridPaul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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It seems a tad unfair to stick the boot in with such relish and vigour but based only upon allegations made on another forum(stuff on the internet is always true , right ?) ,and on events that may indeed happen , but haven't done so yet . They may be as appalling as you suggest but y'know - innocent until proven guilty ?

Well, maybe so... but there are two examples given on this very page of them taking months to pay up, so I think we can be reasonably sure the allegations aren't baseless - and it's a matter of fact that they have gone bust before (early 2000s I think) and then miraculously resurrected under a different name shortly afterwards.

English law is based on the perception of 'a reasonable man'. I think any reasonable man (or woman, for that matter) would find their behaviour 'unreasonable'. So I suspect they're 'guilty as charged'!

Would be happy to be corrected if we hear from anyone who has glowing reports of their outstanding professionalism and quick payments to creditors, but I suspect we may not be hearing any...
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Old 19 May 2020, 06:11 (Ref:3977070)   #30
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English law is based on the perception of 'a reasonable man'. I think any reasonable man (or woman, for that matter) would find their behaviour 'unreasonable'. So I suspect they're 'guilty as charged'!
Off topic comment alert
I have to type this or my brain will explode!

Actually it's balance of probability in civil cases. The man on the Clapham Omnibus comes in when considering Tort, such as negligence and/or criminal cases.

Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic
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Old 19 May 2020, 07:09 (Ref:3977073)   #31
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Well, maybe so... but there are two examples given on this very page of them taking months to pay up, so I think we can be reasonably sure the allegations aren't baseless - and it's a matter of fact that they have gone bust before (early 2000s I think) and then miraculously resurrected under a different name shortly afterwards.

English law is based on the perception of 'a reasonable man'. I think any reasonable man (or woman, for that matter) would find their behaviour 'unreasonable'. So I suspect they're 'guilty as charged'!

Would be happy to be corrected if we hear from anyone who has glowing reports of their outstanding professionalism and quick payments to creditors, but I suspect we may not be hearing any...

Guilty as charged - with what ? You get charged with a criminal offence . As Peter says , there are different burdens of proof but the reasonable man only rarely appears in criminal law and whilst he has a place in civil law being 'unreasonable ' is not actionable per se .



Sorry to be po faced but making allegations , based only on what others have said, of dodgy behaviour on a public forum isn't wise.



Suppose for a moment the firm is completely innocent - as they must be treated as being at the moment - is sticking the boot in the right thing to do ? Fill your boots with bile and criticism after a conviction , or civil judgment against them, if it makes you feel better ....
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Old 19 May 2020, 09:45 (Ref:3977112)   #32
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Paul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridPaul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
OK, fair enough... I've never had any dealings with them myself, so can't say for sure, I accept that.

It just seems to me (and it is only an opinion) that the 'balance of probability' would suggest that not everyone is likely to be making up those stories - there are rather a lot of them out there if you check around...

It would be interesting to know if anyone has taken them to court over withholding payments, but if the stories are true, then I imagine they would pay up before it got to court?
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Old 19 May 2020, 10:19 (Ref:3977117)   #33
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Paul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridPaul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
For clarification - I put 'guilty as charged' in inverted commas as I wasn't actually suggesting they're guilty of criminal offences, but rather using it as a phrase to suggest they may be guilty of immoral ones. Apologies if it came across wrong.
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Old 20 May 2020, 09:35 (Ref:3977286)   #34
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Interesting to read through the accounts for the last few years and some unusual movements of personnel and assets. Directors come, leave to form a partnership then rermerge as directors. Partnerships are formed, goodwill is transferred at a disputed value then sold back to the company at the same value it was originally sold. Presumably partners in a partnership are responsible for the debts of the partnership but shareholders of a limited company are only liable for the share capital which for this company was a paltry £100. In the last couple of years assets have been substantially revalued (upwards) and during this time debts have also risen drastically, presumably monies owed to sellers of cars auctioned, trade creditors and the government (you and I) for taxation, etc.
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Old 22 May 2020, 12:54 (Ref:3977687)   #35
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https://mailchi.mp/wyleshardy.com/a-...r?e=a77091d06e
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Old 22 May 2020, 14:48 (Ref:3977711)   #36
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And should you be interested in acquiring this august institution, I received a link to this, today:


https://mailchi.mp/wyleshardy.com/a-...r?e=a77091d06e
Tangible assets include:

De Lage Rolling Chassis
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Old 22 May 2020, 15:16 (Ref:3977715)   #37
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andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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And should you be interested in acquiring this august institution, I received a link to this, today:


https://mailchi.mp/wyleshardy.com/a-...r?e=a77091d06e
How could you resist?
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Old 22 May 2020, 15:34 (Ref:3977719)   #38
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The ad states: Specialists in fine. Where is the surprise?
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Old 22 May 2020, 16:13 (Ref:3977730)   #39
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Interestingly the web address for sale in the process is still active and showing next auction as 27th June.
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Old 22 May 2020, 17:22 (Ref:3977748)   #40
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There's bugger all for sale really. If they have been trading as badly as hinted here, there's not much goodwill to sell.

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Old 22 May 2020, 18:40 (Ref:3977771)   #41
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There's bugger all for sale really. If they have been trading as badly as hinted here, there's not much goodwill to sell. Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I agree, Max, despite the goodwill in the accounts having been revalued upwards to just over £1 million as at the last accounts to 31st December, 2018.
I feel sorry for the unsecured creditors as they are not likely to receive much out of the almost £4.5 million owed to them as at 31.12.18. The shareholders will also unlikely be paid out their share capital - all £100 of it.
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Old 22 May 2020, 23:15 (Ref:3977808)   #42
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Paul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridPaul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That's not much in the way of 'tangible assets' is it?

For such a longstanding company, who would have us believe they're one of the market leaders in the sector, I would have expected a few more assets than that.

I'm no expert in such matters, but I take it that it means they basically didn't own anything (apart from an engine, a chassis and a trailer!), and everything they had was either leased or on the never-never?

I too feel sorry for any poor sods who are owed money from the sale of a car. They'll be lucky to see much, if anything, I imagine. By the time the priority creditors have had theirs, there probably won't be much, if anything left for anyone else.
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Old 18 Jun 2020, 22:10 (Ref:3982726)   #43
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I found a thread on Twitter where a guy is relieved the police have confirmed he does have legal title to a classic car. It would appear that the vendor has not received the payment from the auction house. Which was - you've guessed it.

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