[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[cokata]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Why do they have to change their energy storage system into batteries? Are supercapacitors have some disadvantages?

No more 1000 bhp then. There is no way a sub 100kg battery can have enough power density to provide 500+ peak bhp. That would be a shame but looking at the Porsche system the higher capacity is big advantage, they have the freedom to use their whole MJ allowance on 1 straight if they want. This will also make the car definitely better at dealing with traffic.

Also i'm thinking now that a battery will force them to use ERS-H since they won't be able to generate enough energy only through braking. They already struggled to get full power at silverstone and spa this year because they don't have enough braking zones. I very much doubt that they will put a exhaust turbine on a N/A engine or switch to a F/I engine.

A potential switch to battery will cause them to rethink their entire approach, and since they have very limited budget i don't see this happening.

[JoestForEver]

But the problem of battery is its life span-needed to be replaced every round, which is definitely not good news for controlling budget. So two-faster-car-better-than-three-slower-one all the way then.

[MagVanisher]

@JoestForEver

I was thinking about the same thing regarding batteries. It's sucks that Toyota's chances of winning Le Mans has shrink.

Whit that said, thanks for providing input on the supercapacitors.

[TF110]

Theyre considering a switch to a battery solution for the future. Thats not a 2015 change that Dagys is trying to allude to. All other interviews say theyre staying with the capacitor but trying to reduce its weight to do 8mj. Rlm saying Sarrazin staying on for next year.

[chernaudi]

As I've read the rules, unless someone has a better picture, in theory Toyota can use a battery system to supplement the supercapcitor box.

I'd believe that the work around would be having the two systems function in unison as one unit. I've been discussing this in the Audi R18 thread about Audi maybe combining their flywheel with either a battery system or a supercapacitor box, and the system being fed both from an ERS-K and and ERS-H.

Unless I and MyNameIsNigel in the Audi LMP1 thread have missed something (in my case it's possible, as I just skimmed the rules to see if only one storage system can be on a single car at a time), there seems to be a loop hole for that at least in theory by packaging two systems to function pretty much as one.

[TF110]

Thats added weight and complexity. Theyre better off enlarging the capacitor for more storage and finding weight losses in other areas to compensate. They can try to rework the packaging or try to find a way to up the output. Using a battery system should be as a replacement not an addition.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As I've read the rules, unless someone has a better picture, in theory Toyota can use a battery system to supplement the supercapcitor box.

I'd believe that the work around would be having the two systems function in unison as one unit. I've been discussing this in the Audi R18 thread about Audi maybe combining their flywheel with either a battery system or a supercapacitor box, and the system being fed both from an ERS-K and and ERS-H.

Unless I and MyNameIsNigel in the Audi LMP1 thread have missed something (in my case it's possible, as I just skimmed the rules to see if only one storage system can be on a single car at a time), there seems to be a loop hole for that at least in theory by packaging two systems to function pretty much as one.

I've always imagined a hybrid system with composite energy storage (capacitor + battery) for performance applications. Best of both worlds... cap for fast recovery and release, battery for long term storage. Perhaps a setup where the capacitor fills to capacity then "bleeds" into the battery system...

Would be awesome to see in the coming years.

[TF110]

Mike Conway is in for Nakajima in Brazil. This time its a visa issue keeping him from racing.

[seanyb505]

Interesting...it seems that might be something one should sort out before joining a World Endurance Championship.

[TF110]

He had no issues in going to Brazil while in F1. Cant fault him without knowing the details.

[Spyderman]

Toyota could switch to battery option for 2015 WEC LMP1http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116954

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Toyota could switch to battery option for 2015 WEC LMP1http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116954

Switching to batteries as early as next year would be very surprising IMHO.

[TF110]

Rehashed story it seems. Wonder what they have planned for the TS040-B? Must be a significant step by the sound of Vasselon's comments. Most probable is the step up to 8mj. Wonder if theyll do the Dome handlebar roof?

[kaivo]

Originally Posted by TF110

Rehashed story it seems. Wonder what they have planned for the TS040-B? Must be a significant step by the sound of Vasselon's comments. Most probable is the step up to 8mj. Wonder if theyll do the Dome handlebar roof?

Uh ? any drawings ?

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Toyota could switch to battery option for 2015 WEC LMP1http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116954

I feel like this is a Must if Toyota wants to be at the front next year. i reckon Porshe will mop the floor with the competition with their system otherwise. can anyone Outline the need for this switch?

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Interesting...it seems that might be something one should sort out before joining a World Endurance Championship.

According to either Daily Sportscar or Sportscar 365 (can't remember which) it was actually the race organisers who were sorting out visas and they overlooked something or didn't complete something properly for Nakajima's one.
So seems to have not been his fault at all.

*Edit - Daily Sportscar, in their Race Preview Part 1

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

can anyone Outline the need for this switch?

The main motivation to ditch the supercapacitors in favor of batteries is limited storage capacity, which forces Toyota (like Audi with their flywheel system) to store and release energy in several charge-discharge cycles between successive braking events.

Energy storage capacity is not as such an issue with batteries (power density is), and Porsche can accordingly pretty much freely decide where on track the energy should be released and be less dependent on the actual track characteristics.

I would however be highly surprised to see Toyota make such a move as early as next year, as this implies rather fundamental changes on the car. That would be a substantial and probably unnecessary risk for Toyota IMHO, especially considering the gap in performance that they have managed to build with the existing car.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by kaivo

Uh ? any drawings ?

Drawings of what?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by TF110

Drawings of what?

Dome's solution to the new regs on extended roofline. Could be seen in a picture on mulsannescorner a bit down the page: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch14.html


On topic: With the advantage Toyota has had this year, surely they would want to just finetune the car for next year and crouse to a victory at LeMans before doing any big changes to the car? On the other hand, are we expecting Porsche's new for 2015 car to be a big step forward, and ahead of Toyota? Maybe thats why they feel they need to make big changes.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Dome's solution to the new regs on extended roofline. Could be seen in a picture on mulsannescorner a bit down the page: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch14.html


On topic: With the advantage Toyota has had this year, surely they would want to just finetune the car for next year and crouse to a victory at LeMans before doing any big changes to the car? On the other hand, are we expecting Porsche's new for 2015 car to be a big step forward, and ahead of Toyota? Maybe thats why they feel they need to make big changes.

Everyone is talking about how Porsche will have a killer car for next season, but i think that as long as they stay fully committed to P1 Audi will have a beast of a car for next year. Just like how they got scared by toyota in 2012, and everyone though that in '13 Toyota will have a much better car and we all know what happened.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

The main motivation to ditch the supercapacitors in favor of batteries is limited storage capacity, which forces Toyota (like Audi with their flywheel system) to store and release energy in several charge-discharge cycles between successive braking events.

Energy storage capacity is not as such an issue with batteries (power density is), and Porsche can accordingly pretty much freely decide where on track the energy should be released and be less dependent on the actual track characteristics.

I would however be highly surprised to see Toyota make such a move as early as next year, as this implies rather fundamental changes on the car. That would be a substantial and probably unnecessary risk for Toyota IMHO, especially considering the gap in performance that they have managed to build with the existing car.

thanks man :-)

Originally Posted by cokata

Everyone is talking about how Porsche will have a killer car for next season, but i think that as long as they stay fully committed to P1 Audi will have a beast of a car for next year. Just like how they got scared by toyota in 2012, and everyone though that in '13 Toyota will have a much better car and we all know what happened.

Yeah exactly. Toyota cannot just make a few adjustments here and there and expect to be competitive. especially with Porsche brining a new car

[TF110]

Audi was able to burn more fuel in 2013 vs '12. They went faster but their stint length was reduced. Toyota did better in both areas vs 2012. They cant do that in 2015 because the fuel flow is set. So the gains will have to come from better efficiency, better aero or more hybrid. Toyota will have that covered as well. So the thing that will help Audi will help Porsche, will help Toyota.

Heres a very good interview with Anthony Davidson on racer.com

[GasperG]

I think that Toyota has nothing to afraid of next year, they must stick with the same drivetrain and make only small improvements on it, If they manage to push it to 7 MJ it will be good enough to compete in 8 MJ class, as fuel restriction difference is minimal.

I think battery advantage is more or less only in qualifying to make a one really fast lap out of three. In the race (especially 24h race) this advantage averages out.

[TF110]

Heres Toyota's PR from the practice sessions. All the drivers agree they have to gain some pace. We'll see what they do.

[TF110]

Its official, Toyota are FIA WEC Champions! Now bring on 2015 and hopefully that elusive Le Mans victory!