Current F1 Power Supply Units

[Mike Harte]

Interesting article on Motorsport dot com concerning the dilemma facing Formula 1 about the latest power-units.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/an...lure/?v=11&s=1

[Razor]

Does make a lot of sense. Never liked the hybrid-turbo drive trains and this article are the reasons why. With the article suggesting:

Originally Posted by Motorsport.com article

Formula 1's next engine could be a 1,000 HP 2.8 litre turbocharged V8, with capped boost pressure, rev limited at 17,000 RPM and burning exclusively one brand of 110 octane gasoline.

Alternatively the famous 3.5 litre V10 from the mid-2000s period could and should be brought back to life.

Either alternative would cost the manufacturers and the teams only a fraction of what the current hybrid V6 costs.

The original KERS system should be reinstated.

Alongside ethanol based fuels (used in nearly other racing series) is really mouth watering. Come on Bernie and FIA, this is what we want!!!

[chillibowl]

To each their own of course, but the plea for ethanol at the end there is an idea I'm not a fan of.

[Richard C]

First, I think it is good to maybe have a dedicated thread on the current power units without having to embed the discussion within team specific threads. So I hope this thread survives!

Regarding the linked article, it is mostly the thoughts of Francois Castaing (ex Renault from over 30 years ago). In general, I understand where he is coming from, but I think he is out of touch in a few ways.

Random comments...

1. Power Units saving the world by saving fuel. I roll my eye each time someone repeats this and goes on to talk about the amount of fuel used to fly the circus around the world, etc. I am not saying that some PR person at some point didn't say this, but it never was about saving fuel. The same goes for the sound of the unit. While some will disagree with me, it is not the problem.

2. Telemetry. He talks about the number of staff monitoring the data from the car. He is asking for an effective ban other than a few sensors. He is completely out of touch with reality and where the world is going with respect to data.

He proposes a new engine spec (isn't that always the answer!? ), but... totally ignores most everything else that really is the core problem (frozen development, longevity requirements, domination by manufactures and equality for customer teams, etc.)

Richard

[Casper]

The telemetry is totally unnecessary as the data can be retrieved after the car has returned to the pits so the engineers do not lose anything. Engineers are funny creatures, they add complexity for the sake of it when allowed to do so. Been there and seen that and had some monster arguments when I said it was not going to happen and that was only on a club car. Some of the outlandish ideas they come up with can't be imagined by anyone who hasn't been involved and I have yet to figure out why. let them take one laptop to the circuit to manage the car, if they can't do it with that they don't need it on the car, get rid of all the buttons except for the horn on the steering wheel and let the driver do his job.

[wnut]

I think you may find a metaphor for F1 PUs here Casper

[Casper]

Very good WN. Why would a team need hundreds of engineers to design one car of which there are two examples used at any one time. It is a totally bloated overkill approach and they then complain about costs. I can't begin to imagine what 500 engineers do all day in relation to a car that is largely built and slowly evolving during the year. As for hundreds at the race track, that too is ludicrous and totally over the top.

[Mike Harte]

At a meeting today, the 4 PSU suppliers and the FIA agreed to not implement the reduction of tokens for next season (it remains at 32, and will cover all the areas as this year), and to also allow the supply of year old units as done this year with Manor and Ferrari.

This now has to be agreed by all the teams, and then rubber stamped by the World Council.

Now to just sort out a continued supply by Renault to Red Bull, with Toro Rosso going back to Ferrari. But Lotus, who knows?

[Pingguest]

It is said that the token system is not Renault's main problem. With only a couple of races remaining, Renault still has not used all its available tokens. A lack of solutions rather than solutions seem to the company's major issue.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

It is said that the token system is not Renault's main problem. With only a couple of races remaining, Renault still has not used all its available tokens. A lack of solutions rather than solutions seem to the company's major issue.

Renault currently lack investment commitment and interest, which makes them a totally unsuitable partner fro RBR.

I will be very surprised if they follow through on their Lotus letter of intent.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

Renault currently lack investment commitment and interest, which makes them a totally unsuitable partner fro RBR.

I will be very surprised if they follow through on their Lotus letter of intent.

Buying Lotus would seem to only increase their problems, I too don't get it. maybe there are a couple of people within Renault who have been allowed to push the deal on condition that they can extract more money out of CVC but if that is not forthcoming the majority within the company won't play???

[wnut]

Here is a thought, if you employed Cosworth/ Illmor / Whoever to make a PU on the basis of just making a really good turbo ICE and the most rudimentary KERS system possible; basically non functioning miniature mock up charging a 1.5 volt nicad, then used depleted uranium ballast to make up the weight.

You would have a good powerful efficient unit that was hugely compact with a very low centre of gravity with no weird brake by wire response in the braking system.
Would you be competitive, I think so Rosberg finished second with carrying his unit for more than 60 of last year's Canadian GP, and he had none of the benefits of a low CG or packaging a specifically designed unit would bring. You have to run a KERS system, nothing more, and the CG of the KERS is not set.

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by wnut

Here is a thought, if you employed Cosworth/ Illmor / Whoever to make a PU on the basis of just making a really good turbo ICE and the most rudimentary KERS system possible; basically non functioning miniature mock up charging a 1.5 volt nicad, then used depleted uranium ballast to make up the weight.

You would have a good powerful efficient unit that was hugely compact with a very low centre of gravity with no weird brake by wire response in the braking system.
Would you be competitive, I think so Rosberg finished second with carrying his unit for more than 60 of last year's Canadian GP, and he had none of the benefits of a low CG or packaging a specifically designed unit would bring. You have to run a KERS system, nothing more, and the CG of the KERS is not set.

Isn't that what Honda are already doing according to the drivers' comments?

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by wnut

Here is a thought, if you employed Cosworth/ Illmor / Whoever to make a PU on the basis of just making a really good turbo ICE and the most rudimentary KERS system possible; basically non functioning miniature mock up charging a 1.5 volt nicad, then used depleted uranium ballast to make up the weight.

You would have a good powerful efficient unit that was hugely compact with a very low centre of gravity with no weird brake by wire response in the braking system.
Would you be competitive, I think so Rosberg finished second with carrying his unit for more than 60 of last year's Canadian GP, and he had none of the benefits of a low CG or packaging a specifically designed unit would bring. You have to run a KERS system, nothing more, and the CG of the KERS is not set.

The fact that Rosberg remained somewhat competitive during last year's Canadian Grand Prix, had most likely to do with Montreal's track layout. During last year's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix he was not able to score a single point.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Casper

Buying Lotus would seem to only increase their problems, I too don't get it. maybe there are a couple of people within Renault who have been allowed to push the deal on condition that they can extract more money out of CVC but if that is not forthcoming the majority within the company won't play???

Maybe the prize that Renault are really after is not Lotus, but Red Bull. With no-one seemingly happy to supply Red Bull with (competative) PSUs, what value does the team have? That would solve the RBR problem, Ferrari could supply STR, but that would still leave a huge financial hole at Lotus that need plugging.

[wolfhound]

Bernie wants V8's next year. Surely its a bit late for next year at this stage both in terms of having sufficient engines ready and the teams having to make major redesigns of their cars I would imagine that the chassis would need to be finalised within the next month for some teams.

But then it was Bernie's favourite scribe that wrote the story.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ec...n-f1-for-2016/
I am surprised at motorsport.com picking up the story.
Also Bernie has been doing a lot of talking to journalists in recent weeks, I wonder why?


http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/m...-a6700696.html

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Bernie wants V8's next year. Surely its a bit late for next year at this stage both in terms of having sufficient engines ready and the teams having to make major redesigns of their cars I would imagine that the chassis would need to be finalised within the next month for some teams.

But then it was Bernie's favourite scribe that wrote the story.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ec...n-f1-for-2016/
I am surprised at motorsport.com picking up the story.
Also Bernie has been doing a lot of talking to journalists in recent weeks, I wonder why?


http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/m...-a6700696.html

If Bernie can bring back the V8s, he is absolutely the right man to be running F1! The only person who can sort out the manufacturer monopoly.

"We need an independent engine supplier. I've been on about this now for a year and a half." Bernie

P.S. v10s would be better!

[greentrumpet]

PPS supercharged V16s about 1.5 litres sound best.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

If Bernie can bring back the V8s, he is absolutely the right man to be running F1! The only person who can sort out the manufacturer monopoly.

"We need an independent engine supplier. I've been on about this now for a year and a half." Bernie

P.S. v10s would be better!

And bring back steel brakes also.

Has he been on about an independent engine supplier? One isn't enough there should be more and the engine should only have a capacity limit and the layout should be free. There is nothing AFAIK to prevent anyone supplying an engine at the present time? if that is the case BE should be asking the question why no one wants to do it but he might not like the answer.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Casper

...There is nothing AFAIK to prevent anyone supplying an engine at the present time? if that is the case BE should be asking the question why no one wants to do it but he might not like the answer.

that would have been a great question.

other than being louder i dont look back of the last years of the V8 era being all that great or really any different then it is now.

sure the engines were cheaper but the money from the over bloated budgets was spent on aero instead of engines, races were still processional, the outcomes of races were still predictable, lack of driver input was still there, it was still too expensive for the small teams, poor governance, over priced etc etc.

i dont see how going back to V8s is a magic bullet. personally i would rather see the new technology made to work rather than abandon to go back to formula that most thought was pants back then anyways.

i suppose i should add that i'm going to watch regardless. too much time invested to pull out now.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

other than being louder i dont look back of the last years of the V8 era being all that great or really any different then it is now.

No! Don't you get it! Totally new engine spec without making other structural changes fixes all problems!

Seriously, I think much of this is ludicrous. I will say that one true point about all of this lives in the other thread (German TV Interview...) in which either Max or BE makes the point that the prior V8 engines where at the end of their development life-cycle so that more money spent had little or no impact on performance. While that is true there are two aspects of that that people conveniently forget...

1. Engine development was moot because the development had "run it's course". So that means to a degree teams were roughly running spec engines.

2. If I remember correctly, development was free. So initially there were winners and losers with the V8 engines, but it did take time for parity to happen and manufactures were free to make the required changes when they needed to do so.

I have mentioned this before, but in my opinion a few key features need to be implemented...

1. Equal access. In short if a manufacture provides an engine, then everyone can get the same exact spec (mechanical + software) as the manufacture.

2. A fixed and low cost for engines. So if manufactures want to spend a bunch of money and sell/lease the engines at a loss they can. But they will also be providing competitors with quality engines on the cheap.

3. Unrestricted development (which does not impact cost set in #2)

My biggest concerns with my proposal above is if there is to be a fixed limit to number of teams you provide (or not) and the risk of someone still dominating and chasing off the other manufactures.

Lastly, talk (mostly in the Max/BE interview) of independent source for engines (Cosworth) is unrealistic in my opinion for the exact reasons Cosworth is not providing an engine right now. And that is because they can be out spent by the manufactures. In the Max/BE interview, Max talked to going to Cosworth and saying "write a spec that would allow you to be competitive". Personally I think they only way they could do that would be to revert to a prior spec that they had already solved (prior V8 spec). Anything beyond a solution that is at the end of the road development wise AND also simple (not requiring lots of third party partnerships such as for hybrid solutions) they would again get out developed by the manufactures (and their partners) given size and resource availability disparities.

Ultimately all of this is pushing for a spec engine. Which I consider to be sad and would just be a trigger for a different path for the demise of F1. I think cost controls is the real answer.

Richard

[Razor]

Forget V8's. Bring back the V10's.

[bella]

i would imagine the huge montly wage bill and overheads at red bull would very quickly equal the debts lurking at lotus.

[JeremySmith]

There is not a hope in hell that the current PU package will get scraped.. Way too much money and time invested this far..
I am sure changes will be made to them better reliability, the noise level will go up not by a huge amount but enough to make a difference ..
The cars will get faster again. And hopefully the tyres made to be more durable, which will have to happen because if they start to really open up these engines then ...

[wolfhound]

My suggestion for power units would be that each manufacturer makes a batch of power units to last say five races. These units would be sealed including the ECU so that no changes can be made to them and if an inspection is needed this has to be done under FIA supervision.
The drivers of each car would then draw lots for their power units from their chosen manufacturer. This way all power units should be equal from each manufacturer.

F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport so it should have the most advanced engines. How long have 8 valve twin overhead cam V8,s (or V10's or 12's) been around? Longer than I can recall.