Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Other Motorsports > Hillclimb and Sprint

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 26 Dec 2021, 16:58 (Ref:4091363)   #1
coppice
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Australia
Thirsk, North Yorkshire
Posts: 916
coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!
EVs on Hillclimbs

I was amazed to read on the Harewood website that they (in common with most speed event sites) will not accept EV entries any more because they can't comply with MSUK requirements for dealing with them.

I do not know the rights and wrongs , who said what to whom , when and why but what a(nother) spectacular own goal for motor sport . Like them or not (and I have no issue with normal road cars being EVs) , EVs are now mainstream . I have even seen a few on sprints etc . But now they're barred ...

An even bigger own goal than banning spectators from windy hilltops when most venues were open to the public.

Can anyone shed any light on this utter nonsense ?
coppice is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Dec 2021, 18:23 (Ref:4091370)   #2
Anyopenroad
Veteran
 
Anyopenroad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
England
London
Posts: 1,442
Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppice View Post
I do not know the rights and wrongs , who said what to whom , when and why but what a(nother) spectacular own goal for motor sport . Like them or not (and I have no issue with normal road cars being EVs) , EVs are now mainstream . I have even seen a few on sprints etc . But now they're barred ...

...

Can anyone shed any light on this utter nonsense ?
You don't know the reasons for the decision, but you've already decided it's an utter nonsense, so it's not clear what you think there is to discuss tbh.
Anyopenroad is offline  
__________________
I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills.
Quote
Old 26 Dec 2021, 18:33 (Ref:4091371)   #3
Anyopenroad
Veteran
 
Anyopenroad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
England
London
Posts: 1,442
Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!
Since I was interested myself I did what you might have done yourself and Googled. A single quick search took me to https://www.motorsportuk.org/wp-cont...icles-V4.0.pdf

One glance at the scrutineering and marshal training required and the rules on dealing with an incident involving an EV makes it perfectly obvious why a club-run Hillclimb dependent on and run by volunteers wouldn't want one anywhere other than in the spectator car park.
Anyopenroad is offline  
__________________
I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills.
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 07:40 (Ref:4091415)   #4
coppice
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Australia
Thirsk, North Yorkshire
Posts: 916
coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
You don't know the reasons for the decision, but you've already decided it's an utter nonsense, so it's not clear what you think there is to discuss tbh.
It is nonsense because it is an own goal . It is immaterial if MSUK and/ or an organising club is 'at fault' . If the outcome is that a type of vehicle set to be the default form of transport , and already driven by thousands , can't be driven up a hillclimb it is a PR disaster. I have seen the advice , thanks, but am not in a position to judge whether it's OTT or not . EVs have already competed in motorsport for decades - they even have their own FIA championship of course - and it's an absurdity if MSUK and clubs can't agree a workable protocol . What message does that send out to the younger and casual spectators ?

Last edited by coppice; 27 Dec 2021 at 07:46.
coppice is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 09:45 (Ref:4091419)   #5
Anyopenroad
Veteran
 
Anyopenroad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
England
London
Posts: 1,442
Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!
Since a quick Google search on the topic throws up only the Harewood website statement, a Facebook page and this forum, you seem to be setting a very low bar for “PR disaster”.

Breathless hyperbole aside, what do you suggest? Crashed EVs are dangerous, hence the elaborate protocols. MSUK have to issue guidance that reflects the danger. Small volunteer-run clubs, unlike F1 and WEC, are not able to fulfil those requirements. I am sure they would like to welcome EVs, but I fully understand why the MSUK protocols are deemed prohibitive.

It’s took over 100 years to get to the current level of fire safety and a major part of that was improvements in car design to largely prevent hot things and fuel coming into contact. EVs are a very young technology so no doubt equivalent improvements in safety will come. But not, it seems, quite yet.
Anyopenroad is offline  
__________________
I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills.
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 11:59 (Ref:4091427)   #6
dwh43scale
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United Kingdom
Milton Keynes
Posts: 887
dwh43scale should be qualifying in the top 5 on the griddwh43scale should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The vast majority of cars on the road bear no resemblance to most hillclimb cars. I don't go to see road going cars compete - even the GR Yaris is frankly quiet and boring to watch (although I am sure it is different behind the wheel). If the field was significantly comprised of EVs, I'd be elsewhere. If that makes me out of touch and a dinosaur, then so be it.

PS - I did see the Jaguar Formula E car go up Shelsley - "Scalextric on speed". I understand that formal competition had to be suspended for the period of its run up the hill. There was talk of needing thousands of gallons of water available otherwise.
dwh43scale is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 13:10 (Ref:4091431)   #7
Tel 911S
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 942
Tel 911S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTel 911S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwh43scale View Post
The vast majority of cars on the road bear no resemblance to most hillclimb cars. I don't go to see road going cars compete - even the GR Yaris is frankly quiet and boring to watch (although I am sure it is different behind the wheel). If the field was significantly comprised of EVs, I'd be elsewhere. If that makes me out of touch and a dinosaur, then so be it.

PS - I did see the Jaguar Formula E car go up Shelsley - "Scalextric on speed". I understand that formal competition had to be suspended for the period of its run up the hill. There was talk of needing thousands of gallons of water available otherwise.
I did read up that the requirement for 1 car , in case it catches fire , is a fire fighting truck with 12,000 litres of water .
Tel 911S is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 16:33 (Ref:4091451)   #8
NaBUru38
Veteran
 
NaBUru38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Uruguay
Las Canteras, Uruguay
Posts: 10,356
NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!
The Dakar Rally has a subclass for support trucks. So how about adding fire trucks as a support class?
NaBUru38 is offline  
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed!
by NaBUrean Prodooktionz
naburu38.itch.io
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 17:15 (Ref:4091455)   #9
coppice
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Australia
Thirsk, North Yorkshire
Posts: 916
coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!coppice is going for a new lap record!
A few points to reply to the above -

-The Harewood site refers states BARC's position re EVs as being in common with 'almost all speed event organisers' .

- EVs are now common on our roads . The emergency services and breakdown services like the RAC are presumably comfortable in dealing with them . It's reasonable to assume that some knowledge transfer could occur to enable clubs to deal with them

- I have seen several EVs compete already, the first well over a decade ago . If they were really so dangerous I wonder why that was , or indeed why I can drive one past a school , to Tescos or in traffic .


- Motorsport will come under ever tighter scrutiny in the future, and if it can be seen to accommodate new technology as well as old that can only be to the good .That is why I think this issue is important . Sending out a message that EVs aren't welcome smacks of a sport resistant to change , and totally out of step with the fact that EVs are becoming the default mode of transport . Like most people of my age , I'd rather hear (say) a DFV or a Chevy smallblock to a Tesla whine , but that is not the point.
coppice is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 17:56 (Ref:4091456)   #10
crmalcolm
Subscriber
Veteran
 
crmalcolm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Nepal
Exactly where I need to be.
Posts: 12,292
crmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famecrmalcolm will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
On the comparison between road and race incidents with EVs. Having been involved with the planning for dealing with EV fires, the approach from a lot of fire services is to make an area safe, then let the EV fire burn itself out. This typically means a cordon, and potential road closure for a period of hours.

If at a race venue and the same approach applied, we are accepting that one EV fire means that competition ends for the day.
crmalcolm is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 18:47 (Ref:4091459)   #11
Anyopenroad
Veteran
 
Anyopenroad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
England
London
Posts: 1,442
Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppice View Post
- EVs are now common on our roads . The emergency services and breakdown services like the RAC are presumably comfortable in dealing with them . It's reasonable to assume that some knowledge transfer could occur to enable clubs to deal with them
Professional or public services with obligations and/or commercial benefit from training their employees. Compared to volunteer-run club events dependent on volunteer marshals. Who do you think should pay for the additional training? For the additional equipment? The RAC can put up their prices, the NHS takes your taxes. Maybe hillclimbs should charge entrants more? Marshals? Spectators? You?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coppice View Post
- I have seen several EVs compete already, the first well over a decade ago . If they were really so dangerous I wonder why that was , or indeed why I can drive one past a school , to Tescos or in traffic .
You know perfectly well what the answer is to that. Driving to Tesco is, on balance, rather less likely to result in a heavy impact with a barrier than hammering up a narrow and twisty hillclimb course. Which is why your insurance will cover you for the former not the latter. And why crash testing assumes the sort of shunt typical of suburban roads rather than, say, the Esses at Prescott.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coppice View Post
- Motorsport will come under ever tighter scrutiny in the future, and if it can be seen to accommodate new technology as well as old that can only be to the good .That is why I think this issue is important . Sending out a message that EVs aren't welcome smacks of a sport resistant to change , and totally out of step with the fact that EVs are becoming the default mode of transport .
Becoming the default way to get to a circuit does not mean EVs have to become the default way to get round the circuit.

And let's get a sense of proportion here: we're talking about a handful of enthusiast-only, niche club events run by volunteers. EVs in one form or another are now a part of F1, WEC, WRC, WRX and BTCC. You make it sound like the decision of a few hillclimbs equates to motorsport as a whole sticking two fingers up at the future. It doesn't.
Anyopenroad is offline  
__________________
I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills.
Quote
Old 27 Dec 2021, 23:48 (Ref:4091511)   #12
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Of course, training is an issue at the moment, uncertainty about gatherings and working in close groups has meant that we haven't undergone face to face co-ordinated training for almost two years with doubts beginning to arise around this year.

As Rescue crew, we would require specialist training in how to safely neutralise and work on a variety of vehicles, even before it inevitably moves to self-built competition cars. That's not currently available to us.

It will come at amateur level, I'm sure, but not yet. BTCC is only just moving to hybrids and they have dedicated safety teams. That will start to give some indication of how it might develop once they have more experience of real life application.

That said, Shelsley ran an EV class last year, but run under very strict conditions which are probably not practical in the bigger meetings.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2021, 07:17 (Ref:4091742)   #13
Truckosaurus
Veteran
 
Truckosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
England
North Hampshire
Posts: 2,475
Truckosaurus should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTruckosaurus should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTruckosaurus should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTruckosaurus should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I was going to say I'd seen a couple of EVs running at Shelsley last summer.

I was interested to note they were constantly plugged into the mains in the paddock between runs and the Telsa (Model 3 ?) had a very loud internal cooling fan running that I've not noticed from other charging EVs in car parks, so even a 30-second run up SW must have got it hot'n'bothered.

I suspect speed events might be the first of the amateur level competitions to allow hybrids and/or EVs due to lower speeds and lack of car-to-car incidents.

Also, venues without return roads will allow for some re-gen braking on the downhill runs back to the paddock
Truckosaurus is offline  
__________________
"Not the pronoun but a player with the unlikely name of Who is on first."
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2021, 10:26 (Ref:4091756)   #14
Anyopenroad
Veteran
 
Anyopenroad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
England
London
Posts: 1,442
Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!
My neighbour has a Tesla which is regularly plugged in to a charger on a streetlamp right by my bedroom window. The noise from the cooling fans is very noticeable for some time after the car is first plugged in.
Anyopenroad is offline  
__________________
I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills.
Quote
Old 30 Dec 2021, 23:29 (Ref:4091836)   #15
grantp
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,369
grantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridgrantp should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
My neighbour has a Tesla which is regularly plugged in to a charger on a streetlamp right by my bedroom window. The noise from the cooling fans is very noticeable for some time after the car is first plugged in.
Cooling fans or warming fans to assist the rate of charge?

It seems both are required, though usually at different times.
grantp is offline  
Quote
Old 31 Dec 2021, 10:11 (Ref:4091893)   #16
Anyopenroad
Veteran
 
Anyopenroad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
England
London
Posts: 1,442
Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!Anyopenroad has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by grantp View Post
It seems both are required, though usually at different times.
I didn’t know that! I assumed cooling as the whirring noise is there for a while after the car is first plugged in, but not (eg) the next morning.
Anyopenroad is offline  
__________________
I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills.
Quote
Old 4 Jan 2022, 10:13 (Ref:4092434)   #17
SnoodyMcFlude
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
United Kingdom
Posts: 520
SnoodyMcFlude should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSnoodyMcFlude should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by coppice View Post
Can anyone shed any light on this utter nonsense ?
Have you read the Blue Book requirements for EVs? It's a bloody minefield and makes life extremely difficult, so much easier for organisers to exclude them completely.

Dunno if Shelsley were running them properly or as demo runs, I know that in the South West most events have been excluding them since the MSA (as it was) asked for something like 10,000 gallons of water on site. Think regs have been relaxed since then but still far too much when clubs are hovering around break even on some events.

Of course I'm sure most clubs would be open to the dialogue if someone came to them and was willing to do a lot of the hard work involved in getting an EV class running, perhaps you could offer your services?
SnoodyMcFlude is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Jan 2022, 13:55 (Ref:4092453)   #18
BertMk2
Race Official
Veteran
 
BertMk2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
United Kingdom
Nr Maidstone, Kent
Posts: 10,270
BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!BertMk2 is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truckosaurus View Post
I suspect speed events might be the first of the amateur level competitions to allow hybrids and/or EVs due to lower speeds and lack of car-to-car incidents.
There was a class for Fiat 500e cars in British Rallycross last year so there has been some wheel to wheel EV racing a amateur level. I'm not sure whether they did anything differently in regard to the safety aspect of the events though?
BertMk2 is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Jan 2022, 18:49 (Ref:4092483)   #19
Woolley
Race Official
Veteran
 
Woolley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
England
Wolverhampton, England
Posts: 12,446
Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnoodyMcFlude View Post
Dunno if Shelsley were running them properly or as demo runs
It was a proper timed class, but not part of any championship.
Woolley is offline  
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other.
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
tonykart racer evs(racing) crgmichael Kart Racing 8 27 Mar 2006 04:10
Hillclimbs and sprints listernoble Racers Forum 41 20 Mar 2004 11:32
welsh hillclimbs j w davies Motorsport History 4 6 Dec 2003 16:35
hillclimbs and sprints ascarracinguk Marshals Forum 4 3 Oct 2002 07:43


All times are GMT. The time now is 22:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.