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Old 27 Oct 2015, 11:17 (Ref:3585952)   #51
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I re read the article in Autosport plus I found another in motorsport.com and it was the way the Autosport piece was written that lead to my view on Bernie.

Here is the line from the article.
"The FIA has revealed Ferrari used its right of veto after it and Formula One Management "suggested the principle of setting a maximum price for engine and gearbox for client teams" at the last Strategy Group meeting."
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Old 27 Oct 2015, 12:37 (Ref:3585965)   #52
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This is what happens when you make a democracy with a handful of teams that will never agree with each other.
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Old 27 Oct 2015, 13:46 (Ref:3585982)   #53
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This is what happens when you make a democracy with a handful of teams that will never agree with each other.
Who said that F1 was a democracy? It more like George Orwell's Animal Farm, except that it's that all teams are equal but some teams are more equal than others!
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Old 27 Oct 2015, 13:53 (Ref:3585984)   #54
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(which I believe to be an uncompetative advantage under EU laws)
the whole "uncompetitive advantage" under eu laws thing that keeps being brought up (not just by yourself, sir)... in the eu, doesn't the uk and germany and one or two others have a veto vote on some things in a very very similar way?
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Old 27 Oct 2015, 14:17 (Ref:3585985)   #55
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the whole "uncompetitive advantage" under eu laws thing that keeps being brought up (not just by yourself, sir)... in the eu, doesn't the uk and germany and one or two others have a veto vote on some things in a very very similar way?
Bella, if one was to take that view to it's logical conclusion, then you could also claim that the EU acts as a cartel, and that the various governments act in concert with each other.

However, although the EU handles billions of Euros, it is in no way considered to be a business, although some may disagree, but that is a whole different discussion and not for here!
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Old 27 Oct 2015, 23:51 (Ref:3586088)   #56
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This is just the sort of thing Max was talking about, with regards to the top teams in that German interview. Mercedes don't like the idea of a cheaper independent engine.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121497

So, "Pirelli present FIA Formula One World Champion powered by Cosworth" has come a step closer then. As one could have expected, standardizing parts is a slippery slope. Or an addiction to drugs: the more you use it, the more you need and want it, but it will inevitably destroy you.

Seriously, I do not like the idea of a (semi-)spec customer engine, that requires a lot of artificial performance balancing or the introduction of a two-tier series. It goes against the very fundamental principles of Formula One of creativity and intelligence, leading to technical innovations. It will make Formula One to lose a part of its purity, reason of existence, and to be even more one of many series.
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Old 28 Oct 2015, 00:10 (Ref:3586093)   #57
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I don't think it'll happen. I think it's a high stakes ploy to bring the manufacturers to the negotiating table, get them to agree a cap.

If it goes through, it'll basically jettison every manufacturer from the sport I would say. I don't see it happening myself.
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Old 28 Oct 2015, 07:27 (Ref:3586132)   #58
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It is BE running a media campaign to get what he wants and he always does this to apply the pressure. Will it happen? All the PU suppliers will be very upset if it does and much dummy spitting and throwing of toys will be the result and who could blame them. If it happens it should be open to anyone to build motors, not just one supplier as that puts a noose around the neck of F1. Define the motor capacity, aspiration etc and let them build what they want. We used to have anything from 4 cylinders to V12's, flat 12's etc and all met the regs of the day.
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Old 28 Oct 2015, 09:41 (Ref:3586152)   #59
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Who said that F1 was a democracy? It more like George Orwell's Animal Farm, except that it's that all teams are equal but some teams are more equal than others!
The teams like to believe it's a democracy. The entire idea of FOTA was quite hilarious. As if they all sat around and pretended that the teams could all do what's best for the sport. How long did FOTA last before they all realised they were too selfish for it to actually work?

Anyway, we've all seen this before. This idea of teams working together and getting a say in things was trailed during "Bridgestone Presents the Champ car World Series Powered By Ford and in Association with whoever else has a sticker available". It failed spectacularly.

F1 should be a dictatorship. If Ferrari of Mercedes don't like what's being proposed, they should be told to throw a hissy fit and pretend to build an IndyCar again.

I also do not like the idea of semi-spec engines. But we also have a situation that is not sustainable.
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Old 28 Oct 2015, 13:47 (Ref:3586190)   #60
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The problem is that things like the budget spec engine are regarded as 'negotiating' points in some sort of high stakes card game in the strange 'gun to the head' way that F1 is 'regulated' and the teams know this sp don't take anything seriously.
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Old 28 Oct 2015, 14:27 (Ref:3586202)   #61
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The teams like to believe it's a democracy. The entire idea of FOTA was quite hilarious. As if they all sat around and pretended that the teams could all do what's best for the sport. How long did FOTA last before they all realised they were too selfish for it to actually work?
Actually, FOTA was working quite well; in fact, it was working too well, and that was why Mr E went behind everybodies' backs and dangled a huge wedge of cash and other things, like the power of veto, under the noses of Ferrari. And yes, then the selfishness of that team took over, they left FOTA and were soon followed by the Red Bull teams, also lured by the extra money being offered.

However, if BCE and the FIA hadn't felt so threatened, we might not have the FIA's World Championships and F1 might well be in a better place. Some would say it's karma!
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Old 28 Oct 2015, 15:23 (Ref:3586207)   #62
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The organisation's Secretary General Oliver Weingarten cited a lack of funds and "a lack of consensus among all the teams on a revised, non-contentious mandate" as being the reasons for the dissolving of the organisation
FOTA couldn't even decide on things among the remaining teams, nevermind the full group. Remember it only existed from 2008-2014, and even in that time they couldn't decide on cost cutting or technical regulations, and even spat the dummy and threatened to go setup a new series on their own.

FOTA went the same way CCWS did. Both required the teams to put the series before their own team. This is why F1 should be run as a dictatorship. Who should be the dictator is the real question? The answer is probably not BE.
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Old 28 Oct 2015, 16:08 (Ref:3586220)   #63
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I hope that Mercedes are profoundly disappointed and Bernie gets an independent engine manufacturer in F1.

Mercedes is one of the worst things to ever happen to F1 right behind their hybrid engine!

Mercedes have no interest in motorsport, they only care about domination and maintaining their advantage.

Bernie is at least concerned with F1's continuity, and he needs a show to sell, in this case I believe Bernie is the white knight! Not often you get to say that!
Completely disagree. Their supplying engines to Williams and Force India have allowed those teams to make real strides forward (I find it curious that Lotus haven't been able to benefit in the same way) and they've challenged Red Bull's dominance. 2014 was a cracker of a year even if the championship was only ever going to go one of two ways. Mercedes also support the DTM and Formula 3, and have provided real opportunities for young drivers like Pascal Wehrlein (who I hope gets a Manor seat for 2016).
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Old 29 Oct 2015, 05:20 (Ref:3586322)   #64
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2014 was a cracker of a year even if the championship was only ever going to go one of two ways.
2014 was entertaining despite Mercedes not because of it. Having a predetermined champion is not my idea of "cracking" competition.
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Old 29 Oct 2015, 06:43 (Ref:3586328)   #65
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Huge plus 1 there dsg.

Hopefully they get the independent engine supplier, I see that Force India have enough brains and foresight to vote in favour despite having Mercedes power.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fo...d-engine-vote/
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Old 29 Oct 2015, 09:37 (Ref:3586355)   #66
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Huge plus 1 there dsg.

Hopefully they get the independent engine supplier, I see that Force India have enough brains and foresight to vote in favour despite having Mercedes power.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fo...d-engine-vote/
I reckon internally they don't fancy the idea that much either. It's just that they are smart enough to know to add public support to BE and Todt's stick to get the manufacturers to agree with the following:

- Price cap on the engines (if they would loose money over it, that's their problem and their own choice, cause then they choose to develop too expensive engines)
- Same spec for customers
- A minimal amount of teams to be supplied

With these three measures implemented properly the hybrid PU rules would work rather well and would be far more beneficial to the sport than a prallel engine rule set and even more so than the current situation. If in the end people reckon these possibly slightly cheaper engines would be low on power they could up the capacity to 2L or so in the long run. But I think given time and advance in technology that would proof to be not even necessary.

With the above three measures in place I reckon the whole token system could go overboard. Why spend so much if the customers teams get the upgrade for free? Perfect.
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Old 30 Oct 2015, 04:19 (Ref:3586561)   #67
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Did fuel flow meter issues cost Audi Le Mans win?
This article was interesting and has implications for the current F1 sensors:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...i-le-mans-win/
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Old 30 Oct 2015, 06:13 (Ref:3586568)   #68
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Huge plus 1 there dsg.

Hopefully they get the independent engine supplier, I see that Force India have enough brains and foresight to vote in favour despite having Mercedes power.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fo...d-engine-vote/
I think it would be a huge mistake to have only one supplier, it needs to be open to anyone who wants to build the motors. If the idiots running the asylum don't make it too complicated and competition is allowed between engine builders the price should be set by the market. Set the capacity, turbo or no turbo and let them at it. No turbo means an increase in capacity and turbo can mean a small four cylinder if the engine designer wants it. All fairy land stuff anyway as MB and Ferrari will go nuts if it happens. I still reckon a 6 litre stock block with twin turbos will give them 1500hp and frighten everyone and cost about the same as a box of groceries relative to the things they are running now.
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Old 30 Oct 2015, 06:52 (Ref:3586572)   #69
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There are many people around telling me how bad F1 is at present, and that it is all the fault of those terrible engineers at the manufacturers.
I wonder why no one seems to give them credit for the amazing fuel/power efficiency they are achieving. A simple physics exercise would appear to indicate that levels of output per litre of fuel burned is at levels never achieved before. The Le Mans WEC LMP1's are also getting these gains.
They are massive step in the sort of development everyone in the sport should be yelling from the rooftops.
LOOK AT US!!!!
What is happening. The people who own and promote the series are busy talking it down. Don't know, and don't care what the reason is but I wish they would shut up.
The racing is as good as it has ever been but the people who should be enthusiastic are busy talking it down.
Sure Mercedes are dominant at present, just as Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Brabham, Lotus, and Mercedes once before in the 50's have been.
It is the result of a bunch of clever, dedicated, hard working technical people as it has always been.
Why not admire their achievement and ignore the ego's in helmets hissy fits?
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Old 30 Oct 2015, 11:01 (Ref:3586622)   #70
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The problem OldTony is there is only one iteration of one engine that is actually capable of winning a GP, the works Mercedes, the rest are just also rans contributing to Mercedes revenue.

That is not racing!

That is the problem!


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I think it would be a huge mistake to have only one supplier, it needs to be open to anyone who wants to build the motors. If the idiots running the asylum don't make it too complicated and competition is allowed between engine builders the price should be set by the market. Set the capacity, turbo or no turbo and let them at it. No turbo means an increase in capacity and turbo can mean a small four cylinder if the engine designer wants it. All fairy land stuff anyway as MB and Ferrari will go nuts if it happens. I still reckon a 6 litre stock block with twin turbos will give them 1500hp and frighten everyone and cost about the same as a box of groceries relative to the things they are running now.
What they are looking for is an independent engine supplier in addition to the manufacturers, so you will have Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, Honda and Cosworth for example. Bernie intends that the independent suppliers engines are built at a budget and are available and competitive for any team to choose as an alternative to the manufacturer supplied engines.
This will cap the price of the engines to the teams and ensure that any team has a competitive engine whether the manufacturers like it or not.

The best way would be to spec your stock block to the nth degree and let anyone manufacture it. Six litre twin turbo would be excellent with minimal aero. Normally aspirated even. However the manufacturers could not claim they were building the engine, and there goes a bucket load of cash and support.

V8s or V10s that are tightly specified and have reached their full potential development and that everybody can build would also be a way through this mess.

Currently only a manufacturer has the resources to build the hybrids, so independent suppliers such as Cosworth are impossible.

Last edited by wnut; 30 Oct 2015 at 11:17.
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Old 30 Oct 2015, 14:00 (Ref:3586661)   #71
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I detest "independent manufacturer" idea -- unless, they are multiple suppliers that can compete and win the tender. Could be a roundabout way of inveigling in cost caps. I'd support that.

But if there's only one independent manufacturer who are allowed to configure more powerful engines and with better fuel efficiency than the others -- I don't want that garbage.

However I'm sure it's all a ploy to get those manufacturers to relent to the caps.
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Old 30 Oct 2015, 16:15 (Ref:3586689)   #72
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I detest "independent manufacturer" idea -- unless, they are multiple suppliers that can compete and win the tender. Could be a roundabout way of inveigling in cost caps. I'd support that.

But if there's only one independent manufacturer who are allowed to configure more powerful engines and with better fuel efficiency than the others -- I don't want that garbage.

However I'm sure it's all a ploy to get those manufacturers to relent to the caps.
I agree 100%.

I assume this is not a new spec (that anyone can build to), but rather a single solution that will be balanced up to some level.

I don't understand the process for making this happen, but if teams were able to veto cost caps for customer engines, how can they expect this also to not be vetoed? The only scenario I can see the manufactures supporting this would be some assurance that this engine will balanced up to a level "below" the existing spec with respect to power and/or economy. Effectively making this nothing more than a way to fill the field at a lower cost, but to not change the status quo at the front of the field. Is this right back to the two tier talk of months ago? And does this really help F1 or address core problems?

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Old 30 Oct 2015, 17:13 (Ref:3586697)   #73
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i thought the two tiered issue was settled when the rules were amended to allow for the sale of prior year spec engines?

other than RBR being in a tight, spot are any of the teams still complaining about engine availability or costs?
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Old 30 Oct 2015, 17:41 (Ref:3586704)   #74
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i thought the two tiered issue was settled when the rules were amended to allow for the sale of prior year spec engines?

other than RBR being in a tight, spot are any of the teams still complaining about engine availability or costs?
The lower order teams are still complaining, not necessarily in the media, about the costs of the power-units, and no doubt that also forms some sort of part of the complaint to the EU.

This renewed drive by the FIA and FOM for a second tier ICE is driven solely because Ferrari used it's power of veto, which no other team has been given, to stop the FIA introducing a cost cap for the PSU's, a move that had been agreed by all the other members of the Strategy Group plus Renault.

I get the impression that if the FIA actually follow through with the second tier units (assuming that Ferrari do not eventually drop it's opposition to the cost cap), then they will ignore Ferrari if it's tries to use it's veto again. My own opinion is that a court would, in all likelyhood, take a very dim view of Ferrari attempting to use the courts to enforce a veto, especially as it would disadvantage the majority of the other teams.
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Old 30 Oct 2015, 23:10 (Ref:3586786)   #75
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The problem OldTony is there is only one iteration of one engine that is actually capable of winning a GP, the works Mercedes, the rest are just also rans contributing to Mercedes revenue.

That is not racing!

That is the problem!

Currently only a manufacturer has the resources to build the hybrids, so independent suppliers such as Cosworth are impossible.
Agree with everything you say except the "That is not racing!".

It is F1 racing, it is how it has been and always will be if F1 is to be the ultimate form of motor sport. It should always be about finding the absolutely fastest way of completing a race distance given a set of specifications and allowance of certain inputs. End of story.

The current "cost cap" limitations discussions are aimed at protecting the franchisor against the demands of some of the franchisees who have been sold a pup. A reversion to the days when F1 was about being able to front up with a suitably specified car, and a suitably qualified driver and then win a spot on the starting grid if you were fast enough would make the whole thing a lot more like real racing.
The problem at present is that in the name of "cost control" we are preventing those teams that have fallen behind from doing the re-design work to allow them to catch up. Tokens should be reserved for arcade games.
The really important people over the years have been the Colombos, Chapmans, Barnards and Neweys not the hissy fit mob who wear helmets.
Which brings us back to the fact that in my (probably not widely held) opinion that the WDC attached to F1 spoils what could be a fantastic constructors championship.
But then I've probably been watching too long.
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