MS UK Track Limits

[Peter Mallett]

There is currently a consultation concerning track limits, personally I see very little difference to the current rules, other than the penalties are changed. I received this courtesy of the CSCC.

https://www.motorsportuk.org/wp-cont...Limits-3-1.pdf

You can send your thoughts to MS UK raceconsultation@motorsportuk.org but you need to do so before 20th Frb 2023.

Thoughts?

[Lancsbreaker]

The application of penalties (even though small) without any warning or indication to the driver seems a little unfair, particularly when the breach may not be apparent to the driver.


The inability of one competitor to protest against another should at least remove some of the more tedious whinging on the driver to pit radio exchanges

[MGDavid]

Track limits violations can only be caught and passed back to race control by a Judge of Fact, and there aren't enough marshals for this. So will we need one on every post or will they be relying on cameras and sensors?

[terence]

Not before time is it.Constant infringements from Hammy and Co,even the BRDC F3 junior drivers are told that two off is OK as long as you don't go four off!!!
They earn their license by SIM Driving btw.Great example setting.Not!

[Gerard C]

Two wheels off and not four is what we're told during the briefing. After that, its up to the marshals, JoF or Race director. The idea of sensors is brilliant.

[The Fat Clerk]

Who would pay for them, MSUK?

[andy97]

On another thread in another place a racer of my acquaintance said, “in every other sport the white lines mark the limit of the field of play” so why in motor racing do we think think it is ok to go beyond that “field of play”?

[Adam43]

I like that.

I suppose if we go back we didn’t have white lines. We were trying to get from one place to another quicker than the rest. There were no limits, but there was the scenery and topography of the ground. Rallying still maintains this mostly.

Then we made circuits and that was still true to a certain extent. Then we had white line really just as a guide and to allow the edge to be seen better.

And kerbs appeared to protect the edges where people cut across or drifted wide.

But then it sensibly developed into a limit. Especially as we developed safer scenery.

So originally it was natural, now it is artificial. Other sports too developed an edge to the field of play for practical reasons. Motorsport too, but it is taking a long time to develop the rule for if you go out.

Sports have variations on this. Football, rugby and soccer all have subtle differences here. Can the player go out, but not the ball for instance. Tennis, say, is purely just the ball.

In Motorsport you can’t just stop play and restart like in football. Also you don’t have a relatively small area of play to judge when something is out. As mentioned above there aren’t generally enough judges of fact. Maybe we do need tech.

In athletics you would just be disqualified if you make a short cut, but the dynamics of competition is different. You aren’t on the limit of adhesion in athletics. You’d never run wide in the marathon.

So we need to have a pragmatic approach to penalties too.

Generally I don’t have a problem with what series do. The noise around it is annoying though. Often there are cries of inconsistency when there is none. Or it’s not actually important. Of course there are some stupid things going on, but the outrage to these are as high other situations that are fine!

I love the comment though and why not, let’s get some tech in there and make it clear. I’m for it, I like the challenge of sticking to it. If I’m allow to I will, if not I won’t.

Who’ll pay for it? Directly or indirectly it will be the competitors. So are we bothered enough? If we don’t want to help enforce it then we should shut up about it. I’m easy.

[delta]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I like that.

I suppose if we go back we didn’t have white lines. We were trying to get from one place to another quicker than the rest. There were no limits, but there was the scenery and topography of the ground. Rallying still maintains this mostly.

Then we made circuits and that was still true to a certain extent. Then we had white line really just as a guide and to allow the edge to be seen better.

And kerbs appeared to protect the edges where people cut across or drifted wide.

But then it sensibly developed into a limit. Especially as we developed safer scenery.

So originally it was natural, now it is artificial. Other sports too developed an edge to the field of play for practical reasons. Motorsport too, but it is taking a long time to develop the rule for if you go out.

Sports have variations on this. Football, rugby and soccer all have subtle differences here. Can the player go out, but not the ball for instance. Tennis, say, is purely just the ball.

In Motorsport you can’t just stop play and restart like in football. Also you don’t have a relatively small area of play to judge when something is out. As mentioned above there aren’t generally enough judges of fact. Maybe we do need tech.

In athletics you would just be disqualified if you make a short cut, but the dynamics of competition is different. You aren’t on the limit of adhesion in athletics. You’d never run wide in the marathon.

So we need to have a pragmatic approach to penalties too.

Generally I don’t have a problem with what series do. The noise around it is annoying though. Often there are cries of inconsistency when there is none. Or it’s not actually important. Of course there are some stupid things going on, but the outrage to these are as high other situations that are fine!

I love the comment though and why not, let’s get some tech in there and make it clear. I’m for it, I like the challenge of sticking to it. If I’m allow to I will, if not I won’t.

Who’ll pay for it? Directly or indirectly it will be the competitors. So are we bothered enough? If we don’t want to help enforce it then we should shut up about it. I’m easy.

Very well said.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by andy97

On another thread in another place a racer of my acquaintance said, “in every other sport the white lines mark the limit of the field of play” so why in motor racing do we think think it is ok to go beyond that “field of play”?

A friend of mine, French Mazda Cupe 2022 winner, rented an MX5 at Silverstone. He drove as on usual, following some competitors, and he got a penalty for track limits. He did not complain about because it was well deserved. Is it about the location, the club, the series or the track, I dont know.

[Mike Harte]

Not before time in my opinion. I have never understood why it is that a driver has to keep to the boundaries of a road, i.e. not cut a corner by driving over the pavement (side walk), yet competitors are permitted to drive over kerbs or exceed track limits with impunity.

As someone else wrote, athletes have to keep in their lanes for sprint races or for a certain distance on longer races, otherwise they are disqualified. And without notice!

[Adam43]

That is true, but in athletics the competitors aren’t on the limit of adhesion so it appropriate the sports deal with it in a different manner, as someone else wrote.

And it needed defining if kerbs are pavement or track. The look like neither to me! As you aren’t going to have a pavement next to a race track why not use the kerbs?

It isn’t a fundamental thing. It needs deciding upon. It was fundamental when it was just the topography of the landscape that defined it, but we have developed away from that.

Previously, part of the landscape was used or not used depending on what was faster and what was dangerous. If there is something fundamental about Motorsport that is it.

As with the Highway Code or the edge of the playing area in a sport it needs defining. Each sport treats it differently depending.

If I’m allow to I will, if not I won’t. I’m easy.

[Derwent]

5 gallon drums filled with concrete would be an easier solution!

[Adam43]

Bit over the top for athletics or football.

[delta]

Originally Posted by Derwent

5 gallon drums filled with concrete would be an easier solution!

Yes . Many of us here raced back when there was Armco by the side of the track . If we went off we got hurt along with the race car. Don’t know the answer I am afraid .

[Kylegibson]

It’s simple, stay on the black stuff its quicker, unless the green is wet.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by delta

Yes . Many of us here raced back when there was Armco by the side of the track . If we went off we got hurt along with the race car. Don’t know the answer I am afraid .

Iain you only have to look at the YouTube videos of "the Ring" crashes
Most of my early competitive driving skills were learnt on the oval circuits, and you soon found out that steel cables and H section girder posts weren't very forgiving !

[Unit 2 Racing]

Easy just replace the white line with a brick wall NO will one will cut the corner.

[Gerard C]

Driving at Monaco, Pau or Angoulême (to name french tracks) will teach you what it costs to cut any corner. May be the special paint used at Paul Ricard is a good solution? I feel that when the action cams are mandatory it calms down some over-exited drivers, all the images belonging to the race director. As others said, no rule of the thumb for this.

[The Fat Clerk]

Birmingham was much the same.

[Gerard C]

Not only in town tracks but I noticed that the substitution of gravel traps by a piece of tarmac gave wings to some, Francorchamps being an example. Yesterday you had less brave drivers keeping the pedal to the metal at Pouhon or Blanchimont. But when its a matter of safety everything has to be reconsidered. Having started in the mid seventies, I cant remember jumping over the kerbs as we do now. Only one exception, Montlhéry and the chicanes, destroying the suspensions, sub-frames and sometimes the rack and pinion. Very damaging and expensive.

[morninggents]

In the 60s and 70s kerbs did not exist
Nor even white lines. There was track, grass then a solid bank or armco. Even the chicane at Croft had no kerb at the chicane with a narrow strip of grass on the exit of the chicane with a 3 foot deep ditch beyond for the unwary. I don't think there were many kerbs around in the nineties or noughties though white lines had appeared.

[Gerard C]

Cant say for the 60s or early 70s, but we had soft kerbs from mid 70s. And what we have now that was not often back in the day are jump starts, and even worse overtaking under JF of SC. We are many to ask for more severe penalties, this too is unacceptable. We are supposed to be gentlemen and not rogues, are we?

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Cant say for the 60s or early 70s, but we had soft kerbs from mid 70s. And what we have now that was not often back in the day are jump starts, and even worse overtaking under JF of SC. We are many to ask for more severe penalties, this too is unacceptable. We are supposed to be gentlemen and not rogues, are we?

Bernie Ecclestone was no gentleman, and it filtered down from there.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Adam43

That is true, but in athletics the competitors aren’t on the limit of adhesion so it appropriate the sports deal with it in a different manner, as someone else wrote.

And it needed defining if kerbs are pavement or track. The look like neither to me! As you aren’t going to have a pavement next to a race track why not use the kerbs?

It isn’t a fundamental thing. It needs deciding upon. It was fundamental when it was just the topography of the landscape that defined it, but we have developed away from that.

Previously, part of the landscape was used or not used depending on what was faster and what was dangerous. If there is something fundamental about Motorsport that is it.

As with the Highway Code or the edge of the playing area in a sport it needs defining. Each sport treats it differently depending.

If I’m allow to I will, if not I won’t. I’m easy.

Why not use them?Because the white line is not on the outside of the kerb,it devides the kerb from the permitted track surface.
Everyone must remember Black Jack Brabham?The reason for his nick name came about because of deliberate attempts to stop anyone else getting past by driving over the edges to throw up dust and stones.It got to the point where drivers refused to take their grid spots if Brabham was allowed to race at one GP.None the less,it was sorted out and the race took place.Imagine having glass goggles on and getting a fateful of debry on every corner.
Where I work there are some favorite ,for some,kerbs people like to run over down through Wippermann.Running those kerbs still puts a tremendous shock through the chassis and suspension,as many have found to their expense.Time saving par lap using the berbs?Around three tenths.Those three tenths can easily be found overr the next 21klm without the need to drive ANY kerbs.I remember a time when kerb use was regarded as cheating.Drivers values have obviously changed.