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Old 8 Feb 2023, 23:07 (Ref:4143207)   #51
Paul D
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Paul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridPaul D should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by MGDavid View Post
Great response Paul, I'm sure you'll let us know if you get a reply.



As you alluded to, I'm not good enough to keep all 4 on the track 100% of the time. And as I do my own build, prep and repairs I *will* go off track to avoid contact.

For the first bit - yes, of course. But I wouldn't hold your breath...


For the second bit - wasn't referring to you specifically David - but it raises a good point. How many of us are good enough to guarantee that we'll never put a wheel wrong? Unless, of course, we're happy to drive round at 9/10ths. Now I don't know about anyone else, but I'm sorry - to me, that ain't racing, it's cruising round a racetrack. The buzz of racing for me is in pushing the envelope, finding the limit - which you can only find by occasionally exceeding it - and knowing that, if I beat the next guy, I did it despite his best efforts at achieving the same thing.

If I'm happy at 9/10ths, then I may as well go off and do trackdays and save myself a few grand a year and a load of hassle!

Ahhh... the penny's dropped - maybe that's what 'they' want???
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 05:04 (Ref:4143224)   #52
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Thanks,I will read it,out of interest.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 11:06 (Ref:4143249)   #53
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I emailed MSUK yesterday with my observations and got an 'auto' reply instantly. It did say that they wouldn't reply to individual messages though.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 11:14 (Ref:4143251)   #54
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Ah, now we are seeing some good responses. If nothing else perhaps Paul would permit those who wish to, to use his text and send it to MS UK.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 13:53 (Ref:4143271)   #55
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The buzz of racing for me is in pushing the envelope, finding the limit - which you can only find by occasionally exceeding it - and knowing that, if I beat the next guy, I did it despite his best efforts at achieving the same thing.
So you're saying you can't drive at the limit and not go off track? Sounds like you're driving "over" rather than "at". What if the "limit" is the car next to you? Or a wall? You drive accordingly and don't hit them. Why shouldn't the "limit" be the grass and you drive accordingly and not go on it?

I'm certainly not good enough to drive without making mistakes, and am grateful for the grass and/or tarmac run offs - but should I get away with going too fast? Surely there needs to be an incentive not to exceed the limit and a penalty for doing so? There's also a safety element: "I just dropped a wheel off the edge and spun back across the track into oncoming traffic", or "dangerous re-joining of the track" after going wide on the run-off.

It's remarkable how many people complain about the BTCC abusing track limits but "it's different for us."

Just playing Devil's Advocate here.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 14:08 (Ref:4143278)   #56
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Absolutely Peter!

If anyone wishes to use any of my comments, or modify them however you see fit, then I'm more than happy for that.

I guess it won't make much difference in the grand scheme of things, but maybe if enough people send comments to MSUK, some consideration may be given to them?

Or not!
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 14:29 (Ref:4143279)   #57
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So you're saying you can't drive at the limit and not go off track? Sounds like you're driving "over" rather than "at".
OK Max, fair enough. As I said in the original comment, sometimes to find the limit, you have to push beyond it. Maybe you disagree with that, and that's OK.

Anyone who's done any amount of racing - as I know you have Max - knows that the limit can change, even during a race, so it's not always immediately obvious where it is at any given moment, so if you're pushing on, there's always a chance of over-stepping the mark. Of course, you can always decide not to push on - that's the individual's choice, but for me, personally, that's not racing.

I guess the question is, should you be immediately punished for that, as the proposal would stipulate, even if it's simply a small mistake, and not something you're doing habitually to gain an edge? Or, should you be given a bit of leeway, the opportunity to demonstrate that it was a simple mistake, by not doing it again, which is how I see the current system dealing with it?

For me, the latter approach makes more sense. But others will see it differently, and that's fair enough.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 14:34 (Ref:4143281)   #58
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I think my friend Paul makes some excellent points - and as one who has nearly gone off watching the results of his always enthusiastic testing of the "limits" I can vouch that he in nothing if not an ardent racer - but one I'd always happily share a track with.


The issue surely is that very few of us know our "limits" until we have exceeded them - I'm fairly sure that most of the time I've not been very close to my or my car's limits - but equally on occasion have gone over - thankfully usually without "hilarious results" - usually just some time lost. At some circuits of course Mr Palmer provides sensors so that the CoC can present you with a picture of just how you have exceeded those limits


The trick really comes in determining where exceeding a track limit is deliberate and results in obtaining an advantage without any risk - eg the afore-mentioned first chicane at Croft where the floppies are routinely flattened and the corners thereafter straightlined, compared to Oulton's Britten's chicane where you can kerb-hop at some risk to your suspension, or a little later, Hislop's where not staying on the black stuff can lead to meeting some pretty hefty tyre stacks, so nobody "chooses" to cut there - the chicane "escape route" being a better option Circuit design and furniture can obviously help enforce proper behaviour, although I know consideration of the risk to the two-wheel racers is another factor.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 17:10 (Ref:4143296)   #59
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How many of us are good enough to guarantee that we'll never put a wheel wrong? Unless, of course, we're happy to drive round at 9/10ths. Now I don't know about anyone else, but I'm sorry - to me, that ain't racing, it's cruising round a racetrack. The buzz of racing for me is in pushing the envelope, finding the limit - which you can only find by occasionally exceeding it - and knowing that, if I beat the next guy, I did it despite his best efforts at achieving the same thing.
Perfect, thanks you made my day! Just add that if you want to push the envelope, the best moments are free practice and qualy.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 18:54 (Ref:4143311)   #60
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A final point: the ruling about how these penalties will be applied in two driver races makes no sense to me. If I, as a single driver in a race, are deemed to have left the track three times during the entire race, then I receive, cumulatively, one, two, then five second penalties: total of eight seconds, with the next excursion netting me a drive-through, which must typically be what? Another 30 seconds? Meanwhile, a driver sharing the race - perhaps someone I'm fighting with for position - can have the same three digressions in just half the race distance, netting him the same eight seconds - but then he can change drivers, and if his partner goes off once during his half of the race, it earns them just one extra second in penalties while I get a drive-through for the same 'offence'. 'Sporting fairness'?

I had read "For any race that includes driver changes track limit breaches are per driver (per stint)" to mean that in this scenario the penalty would also be one extra second once a single driver has completed the mandatory stop.
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Old 9 Feb 2023, 21:40 (Ref:4143319)   #61
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I had read "For any race that includes driver changes track limit breaches are per driver (per stint)" to mean that in this scenario the penalty would also be one extra second once a single driver has completed the mandatory stop.

Ahhh, yes, you could be right - reading it again, it seems a bit ambiguous. I took it to mean that, if you were a single driver, your 'stint' is effectively the whole race, because you don't change, whereas a two driver team gets two bites of the cherry.

Now I'm not sure. Further clarification needed!

I wonder if they've written this with the type of race in mind where if there are driver changes, there are driver changes in every team (typically endurance races), in which case it would be fair to all. But there are races where some cars have two drivers, but others have only one doing the whole race.
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 01:42 (Ref:4143331)   #62
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So you're saying you can't drive at the limit and not go off track? Sounds like you're driving "over" rather than "at".
.
Anyone who drove the last hour or so of the Spa 6 last October, pitch dark, the rain hammering down, masses of spray, poor lights on the car, partially misted screen, may have a different opinion! Couldn't see a damn thing and finding an apex was pot luck. And it wasn't just me, a lot of very good experienced drivers were flying off all over the place. Never seen so many cars 'off piste' but apart from a couple stranded in the new gravel traps everyone got home safely. The alternative would have been permanent Code 60 or a procession behind the safety car, either of which would have made being there pointless. Fortunately the DMSB seem to have a more enlightened view of our sport.
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 04:14 (Ref:4143340)   #63
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Whilst on the subject,anyone else seen Three Into Eau Rouge?
Google it??
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 04:31 (Ref:4143341)   #64
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Whilst on the subject,anyone else seen Three Into Eau Rouge?
Google it??
Hate to mention the phrase "track limits".....

Good to see. Thanks Terence.
Here is the link: https://youtu.be/PxEy84RxVbc
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 11:08 (Ref:4143367)   #65
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Under the new MSUK proposal, at least two of them would have picked up a penalty there!

I wonder, did they...?

Answers on a postcard.
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 11:10 (Ref:4143368)   #66
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Good Lord I hope no-one at MSUK sees that, they'd probably have it stopped and banned immediately if they could. Far too exciting.
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 16:15 (Ref:4143384)   #67
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thank you,Shows how it can be done and faster too.
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 16:41 (Ref:4143385)   #68
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And the various examples of what would stop doing it. Of all these things there is a clear odd one out;

Armco
Kerbs that damage your suspension
Rocks
Trees
A slippery and slower surface
Concrete filled oil drum (why does it need the drum? )
A white line.

All but one are a choice, but one you don’t want to make, or at least you heighten the risk if you go there by intent or accident.
One is arbitrary and artificial.
And that's the thing. The best drivers can drive to those physical barriers lap after lap with few errors. Less abled drivers have to leave a margin of error. That's the point of racing, surely?

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Hate to mention the phrase "track limits".....

Good to see. Thanks Terence.
Here is the link: https://youtu.be/PxEy84RxVbc
Again, there's the problem. Silver car went in too hot, lost control, came out in the lead. If there wasn't tarmac run off he wouldn't have attempted that. As a result red car was disadvantaged and had to take avoiding action, may well have taken the lead if not there but at the end of the straight. It's effectively cheating, knowing that you can use the artificial margin of error to achieve what you can't do on talent.

Last edited by Woolley; 10 Feb 2023 at 16:56.
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Old 10 Feb 2023, 19:22 (Ref:4143400)   #69
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Don't forget that the rules are made by the Race Committee who are all volunteers drawn for the great mass of racers and officials. References to MSUK as if they were villains is a bit off as the staff at Bicester are the civil service to administer the rules.
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Old 14 Feb 2023, 10:49 (Ref:4143652)   #70
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Don't forget that the rules are made by the Race Committee who are all volunteers drawn for the great mass of racers and officials. References to MSUK as if they were villains is a bit off as the staff at Bicester are the civil service to administer the rules.
taking the analogy a bit further, so who are the ministers dreaming up rule changes?
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Old 14 Feb 2023, 10:55 (Ref:4143653)   #71
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Talking of track limits: did Terence teach these guys? (only jesting)

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Old 14 Feb 2023, 15:10 (Ref:4143681)   #72
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taking the analogy a bit further, so who are the ministers dreaming up rule changes?
The members of all the committees are listed in various publications. We are always happy to speak with competitors and organisers.
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Old 14 Feb 2023, 17:54 (Ref:4143706)   #73
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Talking of track limits: did Terence teach these guys? (only jesting)

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Old 14 Feb 2023, 18:37 (Ref:4143714)   #74
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Anyone who drove the last hour or so of the Spa 6 last October, pitch dark, the rain hammering down, masses of spray, poor lights on the car, partially misted screen, may have a different opinion! Couldn't see a damn thing and finding an apex was pot luck. And it wasn't just me, a lot of very good experienced drivers were flying off all over the place. Never seen so many cars 'off piste' but apart from a couple stranded in the new gravel traps everyone got home safely. The alternative would have been permanent Code 60 or a procession behind the safety car, either of which would have made being there pointless. Fortunately the DMSB seem to have a more enlightened view of our sport.
Good you had the experience Dave. You did a great job. Same again this year.
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Old 14 Feb 2023, 19:04 (Ref:4143716)   #75
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I'm on the MSUK Dragster Sub Committee, always ready to talk
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