The difference between Gilles and TGF

[angst]

If you believe in sportsmanship and not 'win at all costs' mentality, then how can you possibly fail to distinguish between the on-track actions of Gilles and MS/Senna?
As Dino said earlier, there seems to be a shift in people's values. I am not looking through rose-tinted spectacles - as I said I am not painting Gilles as a saint - but it is no coincidence that the drivers from that era were on the whole more aware of their responsibilities to their fellow drivers and to the SPORT. I remember a race where Cheever and de Cesaris banged wheels violently with each other, not racing just venting aggression - and they were rightly castigated for it by journalists, fans and drivers alike. These days I get the impression that their behaviour would be seen as 'adding excitement to the show' on the understanding that at least they were showing some fighting spirit.
Having just read Ask Nigel on the Autosport sight an interesting insight into what has happened to F1 is that hardly any of the modern drivers seem to have any interest in the sport or it's history.
If you do not see that barging Hill off the road in Australia to gain his first WDC and attempting to barge JV off the road to gain another is the end of fair play, then I would like to know how far one can go before the end of fair play IS reached.

[Nuvolari]

It is unfortunate that in many sports younger athletes have little appreciation for the past.

I do not dispute that.

As I said, Schumacher is not perfect. If, in the past, he has deliberately tried to take out another driver to gain advantage, he should be harshly judged. But I contend his actions this season (so roundly decried by some) do not justify the reproach.

As for Gilles's off-track antics, they deserve even greater condemnation. At least in competition he's contending with other professionals, not subjecting innocents to dangers completely beyond their control.

[freud]

Mika also uses the f- word all the time. During the heat of a pit-stop/tyre change any driver can yell "F--- get that tyre on quick." Does it make him bad or potentially dangerous to others?

Read this assessment of Villeneuve:

Like certain other great drivers, including Senna and Clark, Villeneuve was a curious mixture of seemingly disparate personality types. Lauda wrote of him, "He was the craziest devil I ever came across in Formula 1...The fact that, for all this, he was a sensitive and lovable character rather than an out-and-out hell-raiser made him such a unique human being". Flying, snowmobiling or driving, he was a risk-taker of classic proportions. Yet his fellow drivers said that on the track he was scrupulously fair and did not put anyone's safety other than his own in jeopardy. This combination of traits made him exceptionally popular not only with fans but with teammates and opponents as well.

And also this statement from the legend himself:

I never think I can hurt myself-not seriuosly.If you believeit can happen to you, how can you do this job? If you're never over eight-tenths, or whatever, because you're thinking about a shunt, you're not going as quick as you can. And if you're not doing that, you're not a racing driver. Some guys in formula one...well, to me, they are not racing drivers. They drive racing cars, that's all. They're doing half a job."

Just look at his devotion...so rare these days.

[angst]

I personally, and more to the point a number of his competitors are in agreeance, believe that MS has gone beyond the boundaries of fair play on number of occasions this year, particularly with a view to the start of races. This is not just some festering dislike of MS, it is what I believe.
As far as the anecdotal evidence of Gilles' 'evils', well I don't know enough about them to really amke too much comment except to say that it's strange that certain things are said about a dead man that he could obviously never defend himself about, and in my experience widows are not generally the greatest source of 'truths' regarding their dead husbands - either villifying them or sainting them, depending on the individuals reaction to the trauma. The fact is she was with him to the end, travelling around Europe with him, so how thoroughly evil could he have been?
I'm sorry to have to post this, but it seems certain individuals have gotten their teeth into this one and WILL NOT let go. I'm not trying to make Gilles out to be a saint, but a sense of perspective on this would be welcomed.

[Nuvolari]

And neither am I here to destroy his legend or suggest he was "evil." I made an observation in light of how he has been portrayed vis-a-vis Schumacher and Senna.

It is true that a handful of drivers have been critical of Michael. Others have not. Alesi perhaps summed it up best when he blasted the critics to stop their whining and get on with the racing.

Good advice, indeed.

[angst]

Thankyou Nuvolari. As to the comments made by Alesi - he actually said that there was no need to have brought the issue up at a drivesr brief, which could mean one of many things.
It may very well mean stop whining and get on with racing.
It may mean don't bother discussing it with the stewards, deal with it man to man (he related the story of Senna with Irvine, almost as if this is the course of action he was advocating).
It may mean "I have better things to do with my time than discussing safety issues with you lot"
Frankly, Jean does so little racing at the front at the moment that his views on the matter can be pretty much put to one side. I'm pretty certain that if MS chopped him as he has DC in the past that Jean would most definately have words to say.

[Liz]

First thing is, I don't care what the pilots do in their off the track time. That is their own business and anything I may hear about it could easily be just gossip, so I base my opinions of pilots on what I see on the track, and what I hear them say - and other pilots say about them. I have heard that Senna was a sweet, shy boy off the track, but on it he was a demon who could easily have killed someone and would probably have lied about it with his dying breath. Likewise I have read that Gilles was a terror at home and in fact that he scared the daylights out of Jacques to the point that he was unable to function at all in his father's presence. But that is merely what someone said in a book, and I'm not going to judge him on that.

Likewise TGF may give all his money to the poor and have a nice collection of Beanie Babies. But on the track he apparently believes that cheating is fine if he is the one doing the cheating, as long as he can get away with it. And I have never heard anybody say that Gilles or Elio or Ronnie Peterson or Lafitte ... or half a dozen others of that era ... believed that 10 points for winning a race was worth gaining even at the expense of another man's life. I have the uncomfortable feeling that there are more than one out there now who feel that way.

I liked F1 when it was a sport, not a game show. And I miss those guys. Three of the four guys I liked best in Formula One back then are dead. It's kind of an odd feeling sometimes.

[angst]

Thank you Liz, that sums up everything I was trying to say, unfortunately the red mist had somewhat come down and clouded my ability to accurately describe my feelings on the matter.

[freud]

Liz, Dont get depressed... Be a Mika fan like me

Btw there are plenty of good guys in f1....Mika, Rubens, Giancarlo, Jos to name a few.

[Liz]

Oh, I know that - I like Rubens and Johnny and Alesi and Frenzy (although he did not sound very convincing in his attempt to escape responsibility for that Mess at Monza) and Jos and Zonta .. and most of them if you put them in a Lotus 78 would be able to drive like men. And if they were in scary cars that required them to learn consideration for their fellow pilots or die, they could do it.

It's such a shame that it would take something like that to MAKE them do it. The most dangerous part of the car these days is the nut behind the wheel.

[AlteredGrizz]

Nice posts Liz

Your right about the most dangerous part being the nut behind the wheel!

Schumi himself has quite a few hits hed like to take back(jerez97)

And i also have lost my favorite drivers (Gilles,Ayrton)

But i have Gilles son to cheer for.