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Old 4 Oct 2005, 06:51 (Ref:1423393)   #1
Mal
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Istanbul Times Comparison

With so many of major series racing this year at the new track in Istanbul it is interesting to compare the speeds of the cars - I have done this brief list of the pole position times:

F1 - 1.26.80
DTM - 1.47.10
FIA GT1 - 1.49.61
FIA GT2 - 1.55.45
GP2 - 1.38.42
WTCC - 2.04.53
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 08:45 (Ref:1423459)   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
With so many of major series racing this year at the new track in Istanbul it is interesting to compare the speeds of the cars - I have done this brief list of the pole position times:

F1 - 1.26.80
DTM - 1.47.10
FIA GT1 - 1.49.61
FIA GT2 - 1.55.45
GP2 - 1.38.42
WTCC - 2.04.53
And now we need to know the track and weather conditions ...
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 08:51 (Ref:1423463)   #3
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SALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It will be interesting to see where LMP 1 fits into this, personally I think they will be a couple of seconds slower than a GP2 car. Last year LMP 1 was around the same speed as a F3000 car, GP2 cars have around 150bhp-200bhp more than the old F3000 machines so really and truly the LMP 1 cars should be a little slower, but ahead of the DTM machines.
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 13:53 (Ref:1423678)   #4
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Asa should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Did the GTs and WTCCs not race on the shorter circuit?
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 14:34 (Ref:1423701)   #5
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SALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The WTCC cars didnt race on the circuit at all. And no, I beleive the FIA GT race was run on the full GP layout.
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 14:45 (Ref:1423712)   #6
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Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R
The WTCC cars didnt race on the circuit at all. And no, I beleive the FIA GT race was run on the full GP layout.
If WTCC cars didnt run on the same track where in Istanbul did they race for rounds 15 & 16, here
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 14:49 (Ref:1423714)   #7
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Originally Posted by panoz.lmp1
And now we need to know the track and weather conditions ...
All the races I have seen pictures of have been on a dry track and as it is a new circuit it is more likely that track conditions were similar, however there are always variable even between sessions, but you have to draw comparisons from somewhere.
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 16:13 (Ref:1423774)   #8
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Go_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGo_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
All those ran on the same circuit but temperatures were different. If this made any difference, well who knows?
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 16:53 (Ref:1423796)   #9
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
A rough guide to the difference in lap times on the 'average' circuit.

LMP1 is the base time.

F1 + 10-15
Champcar + 5-8
IRL +3-4
GP2
LMP1
F3000 -2-4
JGTC -5-7
DTM -6-8
GT1 -7-9
F3 -7-9
WTCC -18-20

Now you realise why F1 is moving to V8s and cutting downforce by 50% in 2008.
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 19:16 (Ref:1423886)   #10
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It is the DTM times that really impresses me. Around Le Mans do you think that the DTM cars would still be quicker. I presume the GTs have a higher top speed and this may help around Le Mans.
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 19:43 (Ref:1423909)   #11
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
The DTM times are a little misleading.

At the 2004 Nurburgring 24hrs the works BMW M3 GTR 'GT2' cars qualified in the middle of the DTM pack.

Now obviously these DTM cars were specially prepared endurance cars.

At Spa GT1 pole was 2.14, DTM fastest lap 2.13.

It would be interesting to see how quick a GT1 car, designed specically for sprint racing, would be.
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 19:59 (Ref:1423918)   #12
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That is true, horses for courses (or duration). Perhaps the perceived need for TV races we shall have 15 minute GT races soon enough
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Old 4 Oct 2005, 20:21 (Ref:1423927)   #13
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SALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by AdamAshmore
That is true, horses for courses (or duration). Perhaps the perceived need for TV races we shall have 15 minute GT races soon enough
Dont give them ideas Adam!
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Old 5 Oct 2005, 09:00 (Ref:1424249)   #14
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exactly, very soon someone might suggest a "sprint" and long race....duuuuuuuuuhhhhh
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Old 5 Oct 2005, 11:50 (Ref:1424362)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
The DTM times are a little misleading.

At the 2004 Nurburgring 24hrs the works BMW M3 GTR 'GT2' cars qualified in the middle of the DTM pack.

Now obviously these DTM cars were specially prepared endurance cars.

At Spa GT1 pole was 2.14, DTM fastest lap 2.13.

It would be interesting to see how quick a GT1 car, designed specically for sprint racing, would be.
That's true, but I really think a GT/Sportscar series ought to be quicker than an (albeit, extremely impressive) tin-top series. The 917s used to be on (or faster than) F1 pace, not worrying about the pace of saloons!

Of course, I know that the rules are somewhat different these days...

Anyway, I'll take my nostalgia glasses off now!
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Old 5 Oct 2005, 15:52 (Ref:1424519)   #16
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Compared to F1 the LMP1 cars are heavley restricted, If you took a current R8 for example and stripped off all the mods imposed on it to slow it down since it was designed then it would be 2-3 seconds a lap faster I think, may even be more.

The GT1's (which I guess you are right, the 917 would be if we turned the clock back due to a quirk of rules) have much less aero grip relative to the F1's now than the late 60's early 70's when similliar downforce was produced by a sportscar body to a F1 and had more power.

Not sure of the DTM rules, but how much of the base car is there in any racer now?
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Old 5 Oct 2005, 17:49 (Ref:1424598)   #17
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Not a lot, I'm sure!

You are right, or course, about the aero, though that didn't stop the XJR-14 setting mid-field F1 lap times at a couple of events back in 1991.

The restrictions irritate me hugely; I wish we could just have unrestricted big, powerful, fast GTs and sportscars.

temporarily wonders off into dream land

That said, I think the GT world is looking pretty promising at the moment, but they really ought to be quicker than the DTM cars.
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Old 5 Oct 2005, 18:19 (Ref:1424627)   #18
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jhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I don't think today's LMPs could threaten an F1 car even unrestricted. 900kgs is a lot to overcome. If you could trim the Zytek down to its 675kg limit (under LMP675 rules). Give it qualifying rubber. And take the engine restrictors off. That would probably be the quickest proto around. But, it would still be a long way off from Formula 1. It might trouble a champcar though.
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Old 5 Oct 2005, 18:37 (Ref:1424646)   #19
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
A DTM car has more in common with an LMP2 than a road car.

The 'Tin top' and lights are probably the only things in common.

The WTCC cars are the real touring cars, and they're 20+ seonds a lap slower than an LMP1.

You only need to see how quick F1 cars are compared to IRL/Champ Cars to realise they have been let of the leash for far too many years.

The 50% cut in downforce will probably bring them down to ChampCar pace.
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Old 17 Nov 2005, 07:35 (Ref:1462939)   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mal
With so many of major series racing this year at the new track in Istanbul it is interesting to compare the speeds of the cars - I have done this brief list of the pole position times:

F1 - 1.26.80
DTM - 1.47.10
FIA GT1 - 1.49.61
FIA GT2 - 1.55.45
GP2 - 1.38.42
WTCC - 2.04.53
Just to complete this after the LMES race:

LMP1 1.39.36
LMP2 1.40.86
LMES GT1 1.49.86
LMES GT2 1.55.16
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Old 19 Nov 2005, 00:36 (Ref:1464621)   #21
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Originally Posted by Mal
Just to complete this after the LMES race:

LMP1 1.39.36
LMP2 1.40.86
LMES GT1 1.49.86
LMES GT2 1.55.16
These times were set, it must be said, in horrible conditions.
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Old 19 Nov 2005, 00:42 (Ref:1464626)   #22
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Dani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDani Filth should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
i don't think those are race times .
they did have some "dry" practice.. the times are too close ..for GT1 and GT2 compared to FIA GT time .. for them to be set in much worse conditions .
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Old 19 Nov 2005, 01:58 (Ref:1464667)   #23
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To add to this, the average time of the last 4-5 F1 cars was around the 1.30 mark.

Next year the F1 cars will be another 2-3 seconds slower due to the V8s, and you would expect the full LMP1s such as the R10 and Lola to be at least 1-1.5 seconds quicker than a hybrid Pescarolo.
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Old 21 Nov 2005, 08:14 (Ref:1466196)   #24
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Originally Posted by Cadete
These times were set, it must be said, in horrible conditions.
These are qualifying times, which, I beleive was in the dry
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