Overtakers / Overtakees

Kirk · 13 May 2005, 12:19 (Ref:1299849)

I can't guarantee the accuracy of this data as it was posted on another site; but some interesting numbers (that of course must be taken with a grain of salt as circumstances are varying). An example of a surprising stat: in the recent discussion about MW vs NH in the aggression department, almost all agree that MW does more overtaking than his teammate. Well these stats show otherwise (at least so far this year - although somewhat ironic that MW's only overtake is against Nick). Enjoy!

................
This info is from changes in position - that is why it cannot include wheel to wheel battles where they may change position a few times. Only the outcome.Overtakers

12 R. Barrichello 12 (JBx2, JVx2, DC, TM, NKx2, PF, FM, PD, NH)
9 F. Massa 9 (TMx2, NKx3, PF, CA, RB, DC)
8 T. Sato 8 (MS, TM, NK, PF, CA, FM, JB, PD)
8 K. Raikkonen 8 (TM, NK, PF, CA, FMx2, PD, MW)
8 N. Heidfeld 8 (JV, CKx2 DC, RS, RB, VL, NK)
8 J. Villeneuve 8 (AD, DC, RB, NH, RS, VLx2, MW)
7 R. Schumacher 7 (TM, NK, JV, TS, NH, MWx2)
7 M. Schumacher 7 (TM, NK, PF, CA, FM, JB, JM)
6 J. Button 6 (JT, DC, CK, KR, PD, RB)
5 D. Coulthard 5 (MW, JV, CK, RBx2)
5 F. Alonso 5 (JB, NK, JV, JT, MW)
4 T. Monteiro 4 (NKx3, CA)
3 P. de la Rosa 3 (JB, RB, MW)
3 N. Karthikeyan 3 (TMx2, DC)
3 P. Friesacher 3 (TMx2, CA)
3 G. Fisichella 3 (PD, RS, MW)
3 J. Montoya 3 (JB, JV, MS)
1 C. Klien 1 (RB)
1 C. Albers 1 (TM)
1 M. Webber 1 (NH)
1 J. Trulli 1 (MW)
1 V. Liuzzi 1 (DC)

Overtakees

NK 14
TM 12
MW 9
RB 8
JB 7
JV 7
DC 7
CA 6
PF 5
FM 5
DC 5
PD 4
NH 4
CK 4
RS 3
VL 3
MS 2
JT 2
TS 1
JM 1
KR 1

mixxer · 13 May 2005, 13:06 (Ref:1299872)

It highlights for me the fact that if you dont qualify well through a lack of performance or penalty and you are in a half decent car you could lead a chart like that.

Sodemo · 13 May 2005, 13:12 (Ref:1299878)

Nice to see the only person to pass Michael is Montoya! lol

I'd love to see the chart for how many passes people have done on Michael, Montoya would surely be top?

mixxer · 13 May 2005, 13:26 (Ref:1299902)

Also I see the 2 best qualifiers (on average) this year Trulli and Webber rate at the bottom of the overtakers list.
Trulli does a lot better in the overtakee's than Webber and at the moment Toyota is better car than a Williams, so thats reflected in the list too

PS Monster, Sato has made a pass on MS

PPS any chance they could do a chart based on positions gained and lost while in a points scoring position

Logrence · 13 May 2005, 13:29 (Ref:1299904)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monster

Nice to see the only person to pass Michael is Montoya!

Heidfeld did get halfway there, but I suspect the main reason for not many people passing Michael is because he's been more or less at the back so far this season. Or in the motorhome.

Any stats as to how many times Schumi has been lapped by other competitors?

Glen · 13 May 2005, 15:02 (Ref:1299977)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

An example of a surprising stat: in the recent discussion about MW vs NH in the aggression department, almost all agree that MW does more overtaking than his teammate. Well these stats show otherwise (at least so far this year - although somewhat ironic that MW's only overtake is against Nick).

If they started in similar grid positions the story might be bit different. I'm pretty confident that if MW started down the back, or in the middle, of the grid he'd overtake a few slower cars....

Inigo Montoya · 13 May 2005, 16:44 (Ref:1300063)

Very detailed (and very cool) lap by lap analysis can be found at http://www.renaultf1.com/en/. Click on race control, and then do the analysis and play with the tools. The gapper is fun to use to settle these types of teammate comparisons.

krt917 · 14 May 2005, 08:27 (Ref:1300551)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monster

I'd love to see the chart for how many passes people have done on Michael, Montoya would surely be top?

It would either be Montoya or DC, if we're talking career-wise. And DC tended to do it without looking out of control

Would be nice to see the old Montoya return though!

Mr V · 16 May 2005, 02:10 (Ref:1301861)

Quote:

Originally Posted by krt917

It would either be Montoya or DC, if we're talking career-wise. And DC tended to do it without looking out of control

Would be nice to see the old Montoya return though!

Name one overtake of JPM on Michael where he looked out of control

mac · 16 May 2005, 04:16 (Ref:1301883)

Don't know how accurate ANY of that info is.

They don't have Mark's pass on Sato at Imola, or Sato's pass back on Mark.

I don't believe those stats have any credibility at all.

DavidStHubbins · 16 May 2005, 05:51 (Ref:1301896)

They have left out the overtake of Webber by Heidfeld at Imola too.

mac · 16 May 2005, 06:12 (Ref:1301902)

They are garbage stats which are totally inacurate, and even if they were correct, prove nothing.

DKGandBH · 16 May 2005, 06:23 (Ref:1301903)

They are probably counting an "overtaking move" where that move lasts an entire lap...
They may also exclude the first lap...

re: Webber and Sato

Lap 1 Webber in front
Sater "takes" Webber
Webber "takes" Sato
Lap 2 Webber in front

Net effect is no overtaking took place...

DKGandBH
p.s. I'm not sayng this is right / correct / good, just how some stats are calculated...

Bleu · 16 May 2005, 06:29 (Ref:1301905)

I found this when talking about overtakings. First lap, pit stops and big driver errors are excluded.

Overtakers
F.Massa 5
J.Button 3
P.de la Rosa 3
R.Schumacher 3
F.Alonso 2
R.Barrichello 2
D.Coulthard 2
N.Heidfeld 2
T.Monteiro 2
G.Fisichella 1
P.Friesacher 1
C.Klien 1
V.Liuzzi 1
J.Montoya 1
K.Räikkönen 1
T.Sato 1
M.Schumacher 1
J.Villeneuve 1

Times overtaken
R.Barrichello 6
M.Webber 4
J.Button 3
N.Karthikeyan 3
J.Villeneuve 3
F.Massa 2
T.Monteiro 2
J.Trulli 2
C.Albers 1
D.Coulthard 1
N.Heidfeld 1
V.Liuzzi 1
K.Räikkönen 1
T.Sato 1
M.Schumacher 1
R.Schumacher 1

Average overtakings per race
Sakhir 10
Imola 8
Sepang 6
Melbourne 5
Barcelona 4

DKGandBH · 16 May 2005, 06:34 (Ref:1301908)

Cars withg mechanical issues are also excluded...
If you are reading the same <i>stats</i> as me...

DKGandBH

mac · 16 May 2005, 07:20 (Ref:1301924)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DKGandBH

Cars withg mechanical issues are also excluded...

Which poses another question ..... how do they determine mechanical issues?

What about cars with severe tyre problems? Do they count them?

Webber's pass on Sato was a legitimate pass half way around the lap.

Sato's pass of Webber was halfway through the race.

krt917 · 16 May 2005, 09:00 (Ref:1301982)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

Name one overtake of JPM on Michael where he looked out of control

Yes, perhaps I should clarify my throwaway line! I was referring to some of JPM's earlier moves, not necessarily whilst overtaking Schuey. Chiefly, I was thinking of Austria 2001, where he was defending from Michael and ended up taking them both off needlessly, and the Nurburgring incident against DC when Montoya ended up spinning into the McLaren.

I concede that both of these instances were some time ago, and that JPM has done some impressive moves over the years (although I think that they tend to be over-rated on ten-tenths) - my favourite is probably Spa last year.

My point was the DC has always seemed a bit more controlled in his wheel-to-wheel fights with Michael (well, apart from 'the finger'!), but JPM is still one of the best overtakers on the grid.

Mr V · 16 May 2005, 11:59 (Ref:1302119)

I have to agree with you regarding Austria 2001, although i can understand his actions. He knew that his tyres would come back to him, (they were in the graining period that the Michelin's tended to suffer from big time back then) and that had he held Michael off, he would have been strong once the tyres came back. (As it was, an engine failure put paid to that later in the race iirc). Would have been better to concede the corner there.

As for the incident with DC @ Nurburgring. I'll defend JPM on that, his tyres had had it, and maybe he should have conceded, but defending the corner, he went over the "bump" that is now there following the circuit update, and he spun, unfortunatly for both drivers he collected DC on the way.

Chaynes321 · 16 May 2005, 13:30 (Ref:1302195)

it shows how jordan are doing ...

... Nk = 14 / Tm = 12 / Total = 26 times in 5 races ... lmao ...

basically in one race collectivly jordan are overtaken 5 times per race

Kirk · 6 Jul 2005, 16:12 (Ref:1348875)

Again, must be taken with a grain of salt, but for those interested, here is an update after the French GP:

France

3 K. Raikkonen 3 (MW-1, RS-1, JV-2)
3 T. Monteiro 3 (PF-1, CA-12, NK-22)
2 R. Barrichello 2 (TS-1, TS-27)
2 C. Albers 2 (TM-1, PF-1)
1 J. Button 1 (TS-27)
1 G. Fisichella 1 (TS-27)
1 R. Schumacher 1 (JV-50)
1 D. Coulthard 1 (TS-50)
1 T. Sato 1 (RB-22)
1 N. Karthikeyan 1 (CK-1)
1 J. Montoya 1 (JB-1)
1 F. Massa 1 (TS-27)

Total

28 R. Barrichello 28 (JBx3, JVx3, DC, TMx2, NKx3, PFx2, FMx3, PD, NH, VLx2, GF, JT, JM, CA, MW, TSx2)
22 R. Schumacher 22 (TMx2, NKx2, JVx4, TS, NHx2, MWx3, CAx2, PFx2, FM, GF, JT, DC)
20 F. Massa 20 (TMx2, NKx3, PF, CA, RBx3, DC, JVx2, GF, MS, JM, RS, MWx2, TS)
17 J. Montoya 17 (JBx3, JVx2, MSx2, VL, TMx2, CA, PF, FMx2, GF, JT, NK)
16 M. Schumacher 16 (TMx2, NKx2, PF, CA, FMx2, JBx2, JM, GF, JT, RB, JVx2)
14 N. Heidfeld 14 (JVx2, CKx2 DCx2, RSx2, RB, VL, NK, FA, KR, MW)
14 K. Raikkonen 14 (TM, NK, PF, CA, FMx2, PD, MWx2, NH, MS, TS, RS, JV)
14 T. Monteiro 14 (NKx6, CAx3, MS, JM, JV, PFx1)
13 J. Villeneuve 13 (AD, DC, RB, NH, RS, VLx2, MW, GF, MS, JM, NK, PF)
13 D. Coulthard 13 (MW, JVx2, CK, RBx3, MS, FA, JM, FM, RS, TS)
13 G. Fisichella 13 (PD, RS, MWx2, CA, PF, JV, NK, TM, MS, JB, FA, TS)
11 T. Sato 11 (MS, TM, NK, PFx2, CAx2, FM, JB, PD, RB)
10 J. Button 10 (JT, DC, CK, KR, PD, RBx2, MS, JM, TS)
9 N. Karthikeyan 9 (TMx2, DC, MS, JM, JV, PFx2, CK)
8 F. Alonso 8 (JBx2, NK, JV, JT, MW, JM, MS)
7 J. Trulli 7 (MWx2, GFx2, FM, JV, TS)
5 V. Liuzzi 5 (DC, MS, RB, JB, JM)
5 P. Friesacher 5 (TMx3, CA, NK)
4 C. Albers 4 (TMx2, PFx2)
3 P. de la Rosa 3 (JB, RB, MW)
3 M. Webber 3 (NHx2, FA)
2 C. Klien 2 (RB, CA)

Hip Priest · 6 Jul 2005, 17:28 (Ref:1348924)

Statistics are like bikinis. They reveal quite a bit, but not everything.

LampCord · 6 Jul 2005, 18:27 (Ref:1348968)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

Name one overtake of JPM on Michael where he looked out of control

That's a trick question. JPM ALWAYS looks out of control!

Louis B. · 6 Jul 2005, 22:31 (Ref:1349158)

According to the stats posted above by Bleu, Massa would have overtaken others 5 times in normal race conditions (after the first lap, not due to a mechanical failure or mistake of the other driver, etc.) Can anyone remind me of anyone of those?

Louis B. · 6 Jul 2005, 22:47 (Ref:1349169)

Quote:

Originally Posted by krt917

My point was the DC has always seemed a bit more controlled in his wheel-to-wheel fights with Michael (well, apart from 'the finger'!), but JPM is still one of the best overtakers on the grid.

Might be true but DC was certainly not controlled in his overtaking of JV at Bahrain wherein he punted JV out of the race from behind for the 8th place. Isn't also David who hit a back marker in rainy conditions a few years ago as he was in the lead (or was it Hakkinnen?)?

The image of DC hitting the rail entering the pitlane with his Williams in 95 has made such an effect on me that I cannot refrain from reacting when I see his name used as a point of reference for controlled driving.

Don K · 6 Jul 2005, 23:11 (Ref:1349185)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis B.

According to the stats posted above by Bleu, Massa would have overtaken others 5 times in normal race conditions (after the first lap, not due to a mechanical failure or mistake of the other driver, etc.) Can anyone remind me of anyone of those?

Most overtakings take place without appearing in the broadcasts.