[Official] Italian Grand Prix 2020: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 8

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by E.B

Answer to that question in more detail (when was the last time we had a podium without Mercedes,Red Bull or Ferrari) on the previous page, post #134:

But that wasn't rustyfan's question, post #87 it was: "When was the last time we had a team other than Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari win a race? There is no mention of podium.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The Bottas situation was interesting I thought, we've seen it before too - only needs something not quite right and a driver who is very, very close to Hamilton on pace (sometimes even quicker) is struggling - these cars really are too sensitive generally.

I'm not really convinced at all that Bottas is close to Hamilton on pace. In qually perhaps, but rarely in the races. We have to accept that Bottas is actually little more than a guest driver in Hamilton's team so he picks up the scraps but wheel to wheel, right now, there's really no comparison in my opinion.

[S griffin]

Wow, what a race that was!

Gasly deserved that win. Got a bit lucky with circumstances, but he had the pace to stay up front. Only downside IMHO was his unnecessary weaving to break the tow, but that shouldn't detract from a marvelous, especially the pressure he had towards the end.

Great drive by Sainz too, especially after his great qualifying. The fact he's disappointed by his best ever finish shows how they were a bit unlucky not to win

Stroll, good podium, although he must be ruing that bad start to the second race, after being presented that opportunity by the red flag having not pitted

Feel a bit sorry for Bottas, seems he just misses out on getting good results when he needs them. That was a big opportunity to take points off Hamilton, but for whatever reason it didn't happen.

Good to see Kimi up there, just a shame he couldn't stay in the points

Vettel was lucky his brake failure happened where it did and not where Leclerc had his accident.

[greentrumpet]

Whilst the race was very exciting and had a fairy tale ending for me it is all rather spoilt by the artificiality. It seems crazy that there was a full safety car for the first incident, the car was in a safe place, I can perhaps see why the pit lane was closed and believe that this has happened before without a full SC.
Strolls podium is a travesty, he got a 100% free pit stop, if he'd had to pit as normal he would've wound up last and been fairly beaten by his team-mate and Norris would've got a deserved podium.
Still an exciting spectacle, wonderful for Gasly, Alpha Tauri and McLaren and gave LH a great opportunity to have a play.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm not really convinced at all that Bottas is close to Hamilton on pace. In qually perhaps, but rarely in the races. We have to accept that Bottas is actually little more than a guest driver in Hamilton's team so he picks up the scraps but wheel to wheel, right now, there's really no comparison in my opinion.

Right now? Yeah I think that Lewis has an edge in races although there has been a little bit of luck (such as when tyres let go at Silverstone) but earlier this season, not so much, Valtieri won the first race and there wasn't much in it for the next couple.

[Aysedasi]

Fair enough, he has his moments for sure, but is inconsistent and seems easily unsettled. Personally I think there are at least 3-4 other drivers currently on the grid who would do as good or maybe a better job.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm not really convinced at all that Bottas is close to Hamilton on pace. In qually perhaps, but rarely in the races. We have to accept that Bottas is actually little more than a guest driver in Hamilton's team so he picks up the scraps but wheel to wheel, right now, there's really no comparison in my opinion.

Slightly off topic, but I don't think there is much in it between Bottas and the last guy to sit in that seat, Nico Rosberg. Rosberg was the better race driver and they are pretty similar in terms of qualifying pace.

The main difference between the two is that Rosberg had an almost superhuman ability to bounce back from ritual humiliation. This kept him in the hunt when things went badly, weirdly wrong for Hamilton in 2014 and, spawny but successfully, in 2016.

Bottas, on the other hand, has a tendency to let his head drop.

They share much the same weaknesses I would say, but Bottas has been made to look significantly worse due to this generation of cars being much more difficult to overtake in when things go wrong and the fact that he has often not just had Lewis as opposition with everyone else miles behind.

A complaint I see a lot about Bottas is that he doesn't try hard enough to overtake Lewis like Nico did. But, really, how often was Rosberg successful in that quest? Most of the time he came off looking like a clumsy oaf, gaining nothing but souring the atmosphere at Mercedes. And it wasn't like he made that many attempt anyways.

On top of this, Lewis has simply got better and better. He is almost bullet proof.

Retiring at the end of 2016 was the best thing Rosberg did in his career. He has become an all time legend simply by not bothering to turn up to races anymore.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

Whilst the race was very exciting and had a fairy tale ending for me it is all rather spoilt by the artificiality. It seems crazy that there was a full safety car for the first incident, the car was in a safe place, I can perhaps see why the pit lane was closed and believe that this has happened before without a full SC.
Strolls podium is a travesty, he got a 100% free pit stop, if he'd had to pit as normal he would've wound up last and been fairly beaten by his team-mate and Norris would've got a deserved podium.
Still an exciting spectacle, wonderful for Gasly, Alpha Tauri and McLaren and gave LH a great opportunity to have a play.

Post 154 and finally someone raises the most significant point of the race.

They design the barrier with a gap in it to remove stopped cars. They paint it bright orange so that it's obvious to the drivers. The driver of the expired Haas (I forget who) neatly parks his car right beside it. Then instead of pushing the car back a few yards behind the barrier, they put the safety car out, close the pitlane and push the Haas all the way down the pit entry.

A number of drivers lose a shedload of places through no fault of their own. A number of others gain lots, through no merit of their own. The dominant leader collects a draconian penalty for being caught out by some decidedly marginal signalling.

Having only watched the C4 highlights, I hadn't realised that people including Stroll were changing tyres and other stuff during the stoppage. That's crazy. I thought they were under parc ferme. Certainly they should be under a strict parc ferme.

It seems the only drivers to finish the race in the places they deserved were Sainz and Bottas. Yet everyone goes into raptures of delight over it. Fine, it was exciting in an artificial sort of way. It's like going on a theme park ride: you get the adrenaline rush of danger, but really you know you are safe. I find it rather depressing.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Greem

I stand corrected. Although I dispute the use of the word "clearly"

Big difference watching through an in-car camera and the Mark 1 eyeball.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

They design the barrier with a gap in it to remove stopped cars. They paint it bright orange so that it's obvious to the drivers. The driver of the expired Haas (I forget who) neatly parks his car right beside it. Then instead of pushing the car back a few yards behind the barrier, they put the safety car out, close the pitlane and push the Haas all the way down the pit entry.

I'm not certain the orange marking indicates what you suggest it does here.
IIRC, the orange marking indicates where a track access point exists for track and medical services to gain access to the racing surface, and not necessarily for competing vehicles to be removed via. In some cases, it may be that the opening can serve both purposes, but not necessarily the case.

Some of these openings may only be pedestrian access points, which is likely to be the case in this example. 'Some of the openings may be required to have a compact surface that links the Service Road with the racetrack. This will be defined during the homologation process.'

As there is already an obvious access point for vehicles coming from the pit lane, why would another access point for vehicles be created so close to pit entry?

If this access point didn't run all the way to the service road, then pushing the Haas into it would potentially block the access for others in a future incident.....

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by E.B

Kimi Raikkonen in a Lotus Australia 2013

How about the last time none of the above were on the podium?


Hungary 2012 ....
Lewis McLaren
Kimi Lotus
Grosjean Lotus

Another was Canada 2012
Lewis McLaren
Grosjean Lotus
Perez Sauber

Before that in 2009 we had two consecutive races without them ... although that was the predecessor to Mercedes.

Australia 2009
Button Brawn
Barrichello Brawn
Trulli in a Toyota

Malaysia 2009
Button Brawn
Heidfeld BMW Sauber
Glock in a Toyota.


Singapore 2009
Lewis, McLaren
Glock Toyota
Alonso Renault.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Melbourne 2013, Lotus-Renault driven by Kimi Räikkönen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_A...nd_Prix#Race_2

Ah yes, I remember that race. Feels like a lifetime ago. Thanks for the reminder!

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

IIRC, the orange marking indicates where a track access point exists for track and medical services to gain access to the racing surface, and not necessarily for competing vehicles to be removed via. In some cases, it may be that the opening can serve both purposes, but not necessarily the case.

If the gap is solely for access from the off-track side of the barrier, it wouldn't need to be painted orange on the track side. I would need to look at the incident again, but I recall there was clear space for a car to pass through the gap and to be parked in a safe place.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

If the gap is solely for access from the off-track side of the barrier, it wouldn't need to be painted orange on the track side.

I'm sure someone will be able to confirm, but I would imagine the orange marking track side could indicate either:

A) access point, don't block if possible.
B) access point, stop in the vicinity if possible to be close to fire suppression.

[Anyopenroad]

Given the adrenaline, emotional state, phyisical effort, concentration and so on that a driver is in after a race, it’s frankly amazing they are able to speak coherently at all. Expecting them to then have a clear analysis if what happened, when and why is perhaps a little tough. Given what had occured in the preceding three hours or so I’m pretty impressed Hamilton was able to form a coherent sentence, lot alone speak as calmly and graciously as he did.

Oddly he probably came out of this better than if he had simply driven off into the distance. The comeback after the stop/go was incredible and I thought he conducted himself very well in the aftermath.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Slightly off topic, but I don't think there is much in it between Bottas and the last guy to sit in that seat, Nico Rosberg. Rosberg was the better race driver and they are pretty similar in terms of qualifying pace.

The main difference between the two is that Rosberg had an almost superhuman ability to bounce back from ritual humiliation. This kept him in the hunt when things went badly, weirdly wrong for Hamilton in 2014 and, spawny but successfully, in 2016.

Bottas, on the other hand, has a tendency to let his head drop.

They share much the same weaknesses I would say, but Bottas has been made to look significantly worse due to this generation of cars being much more difficult to overtake in when things go wrong and the fact that he has often not just had Lewis as opposition with everyone else miles behind.

A complaint I see a lot about Bottas is that he doesn't try hard enough to overtake Lewis like Nico did. But, really, how often was Rosberg successful in that quest? Most of the time he came off looking like a clumsy oaf, gaining nothing but souring the atmosphere at Mercedes. And it wasn't like he made that many attempt anyways.

On top of this, Lewis has simply got better and better. He is almost bullet proof.

Retiring at the end of 2016 was the best thing Rosberg did in his career. He has become an all time legend simply by not bothering to turn up to races anymore.

I think there is a lot between Bottas and Rosberg. 23 wins for Rosberg and 8 for Bottas, with both driver's wins having come since driving for Mercedes. Rosberg also won Monaco three times in a row, 2013, '14 and '15. Only two other drivers have done that, the late Graham Hill and the late Ayrton Senna.

[S griffin]

I think Bottas has made us realise how good Rosberg was. Maybe Hamilton had that bit extra, but Nico had enough in him that he could give him a run for his money and in the case of 2016 actually beat him.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think Bottas has made us realise how good Rosberg was. Maybe Hamilton had that bit extra, but Nico had enough in him that he could give him a run for his money and in the case of 2016 actually beat him.

Agree with this, I don’t think Rosberg got the credit he deserved..,,ok he needed a bit of luck but deserved his title.

By the same token it also shows how good Ricciardo was against Max....

[S griffin]

Indeed, I think Ricciardo and Rosberg are on the same level and it means Ricciardo too can win the title if he gets the chance

[Knowlesy]

I always thought Rosberg was very, very good. But he has definitely been elevated in retirement and much of the bad stuff gets forgotten, mainly because people are frustrated with the current situation.

He received more or less exactly the criticisms Bottas gets now, especially in 2014 and 2015. He was more even in his performance though, less troughs and that put him in prime position once Lewis was hobbled with unreliability and the two or three under-par performances that peppered his 2016 campaign.

I think both are of a very, very high level but just short of Hamilton. Nowt wrong with that at all and it isn't a criticism.

I guess all I am saying is, I don't think things would be so different had Rosberg remained. It's probably why he retired after all.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I always thought Rosberg was very, very good. But he has definitely been elevated in retirement and much of the bad stuff gets forgotten, mainly because people are frustrated with the current situation.

He received more or less exactly the criticisms Bottas gets now, especially in 2014 and 2015. He was more even in his performance though, less troughs and that put him in prime position once Lewis was hobbled with unreliability and the two or three under-par performances that peppered his 2016 campaign.

I think both are of a very, very high level but just short of Hamilton. Nowt wrong with that at all and it isn't a criticism.

I guess all I am saying is, I don't think things would be so different had Rosberg remained. It's probably why he retired after all.

Agree with this. in some respects it shows how good both hamilton and rosberg are....the fact that Rosberg basically had to shut his life down, and get a bit of luck shows how committed rosberg was and how good hamilton is.

i think the difference between rosberg and bottas is, bottas wont play dirty.

Il be honest, i didnt like rosberg at the time, but my respect for him has grown immensly since his retirement.

[steve_r]

Most other times, Hamilton would have maybe a handful of places for a stop /go. This time he is off the back of the pack by a mile. Not only that, he has picked up 2 penalty points on his license, which seems particularly harsh considering how difficult to see and how strangely placed the pit lane closed lights were.

On Sunday morning, I was not particularly looking forward to this race, as I thought it would have been all over for the win by the end of the 1st lap. And indeed that is the way it was looking.

Safety cars, closed pit lanes, penalties, Red flags and dodgy tyre changing rules brought a real random element back into the race, which does F1 no harm considering the inability of almost all Mercedes rivals to take the fight to them. It would be a farce if every race was like that, but it's so good to see other teams fighting out for a win.

McLaren were awesome and would have had a great result even without the various incidents.

Bottas stunk the place up. Have we heard why he could not overtake?

[ascarracinguk]

2 penalty points? ouch thats harsh....hes near a ban then

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Bottas stunk the place up. Have we heard why he could not overtake?

He was struggling to keep his car cool and it didn’t help that he had to keep moving out of the slip stream. That and he was a bit pants.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

2 penalty points? ouch thats harsh....hes near a ban then

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/standin...Penalty+points

He has eight at the moment and doesn’t drop any initial November.

Was it harsh? It’s a safety thing so seems appropriate.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Most other times, Hamilton would have maybe a handful of places for a stop /go. This time he is off the back of the pack by a mile. Not only that, he has picked up 2 penalty points on his license, which seems particularly harsh considering how difficult to see and how strangely placed the pit lane closed lights were.

On Sunday morning, I was not particularly looking forward to this race, as I thought it would have been all over for the win by the end of the 1st lap. And indeed that is the way it was looking.

Safety cars, closed pit lanes, penalties, Red flags and dodgy tyre changing rules brought a real random element back into the race, which does F1 no harm considering the inability of almost all Mercedes rivals to take the fight to them. It would be a farce if every race was like that, but it's so good to see other teams fighting out for a win.

McLaren were awesome and would have had a great result even without the various incidents.

Bottas stunk the place up. Have we heard why he could not overtake?

Yes the pit lane control lights seem to be really weirdly placed, looks more like a design error that Lewis fell into than any of his fault. Surely there should be a light at the entrance to pit lane, not a a light a hundred yards from pit lane on the opposite side of the track. Daft.

The podium was really good though, and a relief to see people who are happy to be there and clearly respect one another.