Timing transponders (merged)

[JNWRF01]

roughly how much do they charge to hire...I ran in the 750MC at the weekend (Formula4) and they don;t allow the Chronit transponders.....

[ianselva]

It's usually £20-£30 , They even had them at Porto. It depends how many races a year you do , if its worth while to rent or buy.

[Al Weyman]

Got mine now and fitted it. Just need a new tow vehicle now as the Rangie has just failed the MoT due to severe rus bug infestation, bang goes my planned Mallory trip Wednesday, anyone want to build an off road racer as the Rangie would be a brilliant base, excellent 3.9 EFI engine 5 speed manual trans, chassis is fine 85000 from new runs beautiful just suffering from Rover desease.

[greenamex2]

Result - I have a red one.

[jimbomit]

Not sure if this has been done to death or not, however as a memory jog MST announced earlier this year that the orange (Chronit) transponders some of us have will no longer be useable next year.

This has been caused by the original supply company going bust and MST deciding that they will no longer support the software needed to pick up the signal from them. (Although they have a fix in place this year)

That means anyone with an orange transponder will need to buy a new one, just over £200 at full price (although if you read the e-mail below we will get them at cost. . . however much that will be).

I find this totally unacceptable as either MST or the ‘new’ transponder suppliers are putting us in a position where we have to pay for someone else’s mess.

I have sent MST a few e-mails regarding this, but correspondence dried up and I now get no response at all.

Basically we are stuffed!!. . . . However, groups have a certain power and I suggest we don't let this pass without a fight.

Firstly, any lawyers out there? I have looked on the internet about consumer law and it looks like anyone who made a purchase after March 2003 could be covered as the goods are not fit for use and their becoming obsolete has occurred in an unreasonable time scale. MST as the supplier will have to replace for free. . . I think!!! Those who bought before may not have as much sway but we could really do with some expert guidance if anyone is willing to volunteer it?????

Also for your information, MST are playing a game with us, I know of several people who were told they would need to pay £150 (cost price) but after making complete pests of themselves, managed to secure one for £50 from MST. I say lets all be pests and get them to pay for their chosen products failure.

Basically we need to cause a bit of a stink, and if we have a legal leg to stand on, hit them where we can.

Racing is expensive, and these blatant rip offs are not on.

Read the correspondence and make up your own mind.

Anyone with me???!!!!




-----Original Message-----
From: John Ward [mailto:John@msttiming.com]

A notification regarding Chronit transponders was issued to all clubs last November for circulation.

Chronit went into receivership in 2004. Chronit transponder can still be used, however from November 2005 they cannot be picked up by AMB decoders (the only ones we use). In an agreement reached with AMB, they will support our workaround until November 2005 but after that date, all decoder must be changed. (20+ at £2,000 each) If we don't update, we cannot read the latest transponders AMB have manufacturer since March 2004 and which have subsequently update earlier this year.

Again we have tried to give as much notice to competitors who have these transponder by issuing the notice in November 2004. We have agreed with AMB that we will sell you a new AMB tranponder at cost price in exchange for a working Chronit transponder.


John Ward
MST sports timing Ltd.
14 Albert Road, Tamworth, UK B79 7JN
Finance Director
john@msttiming.com

Mobile: +44 (0) 7770 993434
Tel: +44 (0) 1827 68010
Fax: +44 (0) 1827 64709

[Chris Y]

Sorry, I've merged the two threads, as they're essentially discussing the same thing. The whole truth is not clear to any of us here, but I would like to just point out a few things Jimbo,

This has been caused by the original supply company going bust and MST deciding that they will no longer support the software needed to pick up the signal from them. (Although they have a fix in place this year)

It's a bit unfair to blame the MST for this one - it's actually AMB (the people who make the transponder decoder system) that have removed the 'compatibility' from their systems (as John Ward points out in his letter). AMB are a really large company with quite a monopoly, and they like to keep it that way..

I'm not sure any lawyer would touch this with a cattle prod. I seem to recall every order form and information letter sent out upon the introduction of these transponders said that they could only be guaranteed to work until the beginning of 2006. This is why MST asked AMB for the 'temporary fix' for this year - otherwise MST would be in a lot of trouble. I don't think the 'fit for use' argument would stand up either, as the Chronit transponders have been in use successfully for about 3 years now.

I sympathise with your stance Jimbo, we are being stuffed here. However, MST are being stuffed too, as AMB equipment isn't cheap, and they're being forced to 'upgrade' their equipment (some would say so that AMB can keep their monopoly). MST basically made a big mistake in going for the Chronit transponders in the first place, but they probably weren't aware at the time of the problems that would occur with them.

If some of your friends are getting the transponders for £50, then they must have kicked up quite a stink indeed, as £150 is the real cost price - try getting them cheaper than £160 from anywhere else.. I can't imagine MST doing this for many more people, as it will be costing them a lot of money, on top of the amount it's costing them to upgrade the AMB equipment.

In short, yes we can kick up a stink, but it'll ultimately do nothing for us. MST can't really do anything about the current situation. If they were to upgrade all of the Chronit users for free, or even for £50, they'd go bankrupt.

Touching upon what Al said earlier in this thread, I too used to go radio control car racing, and we had AMB transponders then (mid-late '90s). The club bought a set or two, and each competitor was given one upon sign-on, and returned the transponder before going home. Perhaps that's what is needed in club racing? Also - the timing was done exclusively by transponder, and only manually timed (no light beams) when there was a problem with one of the transponders. Thus far, I've yet to see a compelling excuse why this system couldn't be employed in UK club racing...

[jimbomit]

Chris I take your point but please don't get me wrong. I'm not looking to blame anyone, I want to see if everyone efected can get together and get the best solution.

We all know how much racing costs and when we are required by our club to make changes to safety non of us would argue.

When they make changes in order to save the club money, we may grumble but so long as we ultimately benefit (held / lower racing costs) again most will go along with it.

In this instance, we have been told we are only eligible to race if we have a transponder. Fitting them does not save the clubs any money and does not make timing any more accurate. It merely helps car identification where the age old methos of having numbers on the side of cars' system has now obviously floundered and become impossible!!!

From what I can see the only benifactors to club racing are the supply companies, namely MST as the UK agent. I presume the clubs / circuit must get some benefit / prestige from having the systems at the tracks but it is not for the benefit of the clubbie. However it IS the clubbie who has to pay for this.

Chronit have gone bust, not our fault. MST were the suppliers and as a responsible company will have mitigated their risks in some way either through insurance or by deciding their business can survive a product recall scenario.

If MST are legally obliged to compensate us, then they must.

If they are not, as a group we can investigate routes to ensure we are either not penalised at all, or at the least our outlay is minimal. If this means approaching the other supplier using bulk purchase power then so be it.

There are alternatives if we want, remember we are the customers of racing and we have the power to make changes.

IF ANYONE IS INTERESTED IN PURSUING THIS FURTHER, I WILL POST CONTACT DETAILS ON THIS FORUM AND I WILL GLADLY TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE.

WE MAY GET NOWHERE BUT I AM WILLING TO GIVE IT A TRY. NOTHING VENTURED. . . . .!!!

[StephenRae]

If a 2003 vintage AMB transponder works in 2006, without any modification and a 2003 vintage Chronit transponder...which presumably sends out exactly the same type of signal...just a different number, doesn't work then can someone explain how this is done, other than programming the receiver to ignore the Chronit numbers.

[Tick Tock Man]

AMB and ChronIT transponders can have the same numbers, there is something different in the signal that is differentiates between the two. You are correct that it was a firmware change by AMB that made their decoders no longer accept ChronIT transponders. I also think they may have changed their transponders slighly as they have had to release new firmware to allow reliable detection of their own transponders.

[jimbomit]

If you are interested in me trying to get a resolution, I need to know numbers.

If you click on my profile and e-mail me, in the subject box write either BATTERY or WIRED depending on which type of Chronit transponder you have.

[StephenRae]

Originally Posted by Tick Tock Man

AMB and ChronIT transponders can have the same numbers, there is something different in the signal that is differentiates between the two. You are correct that it was a firmware change by AMB that made their decoders no longer accept ChronIT transponders. I also think they may have changed their transponders slighly as they have had to release new firmware to allow reliable detection of their own transponders.

I find it hard to believe that there transponders out there with the same numbers...what if they ended up in the same race.
I don't know what 'firmware' is, but if it's purpose is to specifically exclude transponders not made by AMB...which I don't blame them for, it looks as if allowing Chronits to work in 2005 was a gesture to MST to get them out of having to replace Chronits sold less than 1 year previously.

[diz]

THE ANSWER IS
I'm sorry for all those who have already been forced to buy one from day one - be it wired, battery, orange, red, or sky blue pink - but it just needs chalking down to it was 'one big mistake ever going down the transponder route'

1. MST managed perfectly well for years using the light beam system, with human car identification.
2. The transponders - although totally capable of doing the timing - are not allowed to produce times, as the mighty MSA deem that light beam timing must be used.
3. MST still do the manual car identification as a back up, so there has been no cost savings in personnel.
4. MST continually have to correct the timing screens from the start of practice now they use transponders. Why?
They no longer appear to use the entry lists that the clubs supply. So if you have a transponder that you first use at say the 13th April meeting at circuit X, it correctly identifies you as say "No.14 Joe Bloggs, Van Diemen RF90 etc."
You share the car, or lend your transponder to another driver at the 18th May meeting - in the same class, or a totally different one. At this meeting, you get "No.14 Joe Bloggs, Van Diemen RF90 etc." when it is in fact "No. 27 Jennifer Soap, Super Mighty Mini etc", or just the wrong name. I've lost track of how many sex changes David and Natalie Murphy have had this year

What I haven't got to the bottom of is just who it was that decided the use of transponders was to become mandatory.

Originally Posted by Chris Y

I sympathise with your stance Jimbo, we are being stuffed here. However, MST are being stuffed too, as AMB equipment isn't cheap, and they're being forced to 'upgrade' their equipment (some would say so that AMB can keep their monopoly). MST basically made a big mistake in going for the Chronit transponders in the first place, but they probably weren't aware at the time of the problems that would occur with them.

In short, yes we can kick up a stink, but it'll ultimately do nothing for us. MST can't really do anything about the current situation. If they were to upgrade all of the Chronit users for free, or even for £50, they'd go bankrupt.

It isn't Jimbo who needs your sympathy Chris, it is each and every one of you out there who has ever had to buy a transponder.

I think we shouldn't blame MST, or the Clubs. Who we should blame is the MSA. They are the ones - our governing body. They should start governing and they are the ones that yes we can kick up a stink to and the kicking should start now with all letters starting "Dear MSA"

[jimbomit]

So far there are a grand total of . . . . 3 people with offending transponders.

Come on guys and galls, this is about us standing up for us.

You may think there is no point but if we don't try we WON'T GET ANYWHERE!

There must be room for MST to help us more. When they supply a new one 'at cost' you have to return a WORKING orange one with all the bits and bobs. Now I don't know for fact but may I suggest they will have the old receivers still after the UK circuits are upgraded? And if they have a supply of second hand orange transponders, well I would have thought it logical they would try to sell them on as a package and make a few quid?

If that's a case, I think any money they make should be pumped back to us to offset the cost of a new one.

So come on, a few hundred people have read this thread, don't sit on the side lines, get involved!!!!

[JLD]

As a newcomer to the 'racing game' and having a car that is still in the 'preparation stage' (will be ready for the start of next season, the message that I'm getting is " don't do anything until as late as it can be left until, as things could change".

Am I right in this assumption?

[Tim Falce]

JLD, leave it as late as possible and even hire one for a while as I am sure MST will find some excuse to change the system once again so we will all have to buy new transponders.

[dtype38]

Hiring a transponder was an option with the club I race with, when they were first introduced. Trouble was that the club wanted a hire fee of £25 a meeting. It doesn't take a mathematician to work out that, for most club racers, it would be cheaper to buy on for a season. Personally I was lucky in that I just happened to be sent an AMB transponder. Either way, though, surely it could be a viable proposition to hire them out for a small enough fee, perhaps by the season, to make this a realistic option? Has anyone been offered a transponder hire for a more reasonable fee?

It occurs to me that if enough of us just loaned/hired our transponders to other competitors while we weren't using them, preferably at the same meeting, it would cause enough of a headache for MST trying to identify the cars in each race that they'd bin the whole system

[Tick Tock Man]

Originally Posted by dtype38

It occurs to me that if enough of us just loaned/hired our transponders to other competitors while we weren't using them, preferably at the same meeting, it would cause enough of a headache for MST trying to identify the cars in each race that they'd bin the whole system

Please note that not all meetings in the UK are timed by MST. At 750MC we use a different system (still AMB based) which only requires 2 or 3 timekeepers to operate due to all competitors beign fitted with a working transponder. We are affteced by the ChronIT issue as we don't have the fix that allows them to be detected which is why we currently 'free loan' an AMB transponder to those that have AMB (don't know if this will change next year).

[diz]

And on top of all this transponder mullarkey, they still make far too frequent 'human' errors. Try this from their website for Donington ARP F3 qualifying last Sunday.
1 9 A Alan ELLIS Dallara F398 30.323 19 232.37
2 1 A Richard MARSH Dallara F3 45.559 19 15.236 154.66
3 3 A Jon GRAY Dallara F399 45.659 19 15.336 154.32
4 17 B Paul SIBLEY Dallara F395 49.758 19 19.435 141.61
5 39 Mas Paul KNAPTON Reynard 913 50.413 19 20.090 139.77
6 10 A Terry LUDGROVE Dallara 963 54.096 18 23.773 130.25
7 33 Mas Peter KALPAKIOTIS Dallara F391 58.110 19 27.787 121.25
8 35 Mas Stephen CLEGG Reynard 863 58.198 20 27.875 121.07
9 34 Mas Peter HANNAM Reynard 923 58.973 17 28.650 119.48
10 7 A Keith BALDWIN Dallara F300 1:07.870 19 37.547 103.82
11 15 A Edwin JOWSEY Dallara F3 1:08.053 18 37.730 103.54

It looks like they didn't get it right until P10 onwards.
Even I couldn't run round Donington that quick, even if I was being chased by somebody for that fiver I've owed them for ten years.
30.323secs 232.37 mph That is some going.

[jimbomit]

Diz, are you aware of the regulation in 'the blue book' which stipulates we must run with transponders?

Cheers

[diz]

Jim,
I can't see anything in my 'Scouse Language Version'

[greenamex2]

It's a club thing. If you want to race with a specific club then you have to follow their rules. If you don't you get ejected and don't race.

[zefarelly]

I raced with the HSCC last year, ordered a red transponder (blagged a free one due to late delivery at Donnington) and it did al my races last year, 9 of them, so it paid for itself over hiring at £30 a go.

At spa they made us use a lime green one ? Dijon the same, at Chimay, CC and Donny this year they must have picked up my signal, its hard wired to the car and I put my munber down on my entry form.

I've never not been given times . . . .theyre not very good ones half the time but I always get print outs within a tenth or two of Mrs Zefs stop watch

[MGDavid]

If you race with the FISC Midget series in Europe, they give you a transponder at sign-on and you give it back before you go home. 'All part of the service' of this excellent organiser - seems to me that different attitudes prevail abroad, don't whinge, vote with your feet....

[goforit500]

Seem to remember that we were issued with transponders at Mondello 3-4 years ago.....

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

If you race with the FISC Midget series in Europe, they give you a transponder at sign-on and you give it back before you go home. 'All part of the service'.

Hush, don't say this too loud David, the organisers might get the daft idea to charge people for the transponders as well on the mainland.