Timing transponders (merged)

[jimbomit]

All, I have contacted by e-mail the BRSCC and MSA (see note below). I am waiting a response from both, but I would encourage everyone to do the same. The more we can act as one, the more likely we are to get a result.

Just to give you all a knudge, MST are apparently asking for about £180 inc p&p for an 'at cost' replacement.

IF WE DON'T SHOUT WE WON'T BE HEARD!!!

Contact details to send e-mails to are on your clubs web site or the MSA website, it only takes a minute and could save you a race fee in return.



Sir I wonder if you can help!

As I’m sure you are aware, there is an issue regarding the Chronit timing transponders becoming obsolete from November this year.

I like many of my racing friends feel that we do not have the full story regarding the whole transponder issue and as such I was hoping you could enlighten me or point me in the right direction!!

Firstly, we have been told we must run with transponders, however under whose authority has this come about? Our race organizing clubs, the MSA, the tracks, MST or another party?

Secondly, I recall having to purchase the transponder from MST, no alternative being available and there was not a choice of make. We were simply made to chose between a hard wired and battery powered device. Within two years we are told these devises (Chronit) will be obsolete and we must now purchase a new transponder. How can it be that the powers that be have allowed this situation to happen? MST have told me there is a ‘fix’ in place to allow the use of Chronit transponders which will not be in place next year.

I’m sure you appreciate that this looks like your racing members were forced to purchase a product from a specific supplier without choice, only for that product to become uneconomically viable to support. The consequence being the purchaser foots the bill for decisions taken elsewhere in the motor racing hierarchy?

Thirdly, MST are offering to sell us the latest transponders at cost but only when we return a working Chronit transponder and all support equipment. It has been suggested that MST may be selling these on. If so why are they able to sell us a product at a profit, not exchange it for a new product when the former becomes obsolete then charge us again for a new one while pocketing any profit from resale?

Lastly! Under what pretence can we be forced to run with a new transponder at our cost when we have operational transponders we have already paid for? The fact the company employed to pick up the signal from our transponders has taken the decision not to do so should surely be the liability of either that company or the body that took that decision?

Sir please don’t take this as an out and out rant, although I know it does go on a bit! This is causing a great deal of upset amongst the racing community and as such I / we are looking for help and guidance.

Motorsport is not cheap and we accept that. We understand there is often expense to improve our racing directly or indirectly be it in facilities or safety. However, transponders do not seem to have benefited anyone except the commercial entities that supply the constituent parts. They are not foolproof, have generated costs rather than savings and are now bringing the very worst business politics to the race tracks, a place where most of motorsport participants go to escape such things!!

I do hope you can help in some way.

Kind regards

[Al Weyman]

Good letter Jim, lets hope it does not fall on deaf ears.

The most amazing thing about this debacle and something, being out of the sport for 8 year I was totally unaware of is that these things basically don't do what they say on the tin, i.e. automatically and accurately time a motor race. I am astonded that the barrage of timekeepers are still required. As I said before they have been doing this for years with model car racing and far far cheaper so why can't they get it right for the real thing.

[jimbomit]

"We note your correpsondance regarding the redundant use of Chronit equipment. The MSA do not mandate on the the type of transponder to be used, such decisions are usually taken up by the club.

We have your copied your email to the Timekeeping Advisory Panel (Mr E Cowcill). If you require any further assistance pleasedo not hesitate in contacting the MSA Technical Department.

Yours Sincerely,

Spencer Bird"

Above is the response from Spencer at MSA. It would appear it is our clubs we need to be targeting. BRSCC haven't responded yet but be sure I will chase them!!

[Chris Y]

That would appear to be incorrect. It's MST that choose the type of transponder, not the club. I don't remember being asked what club I belonged to when I ordered my transponder from MST.

[Ian Sowman]

Not necessarily incorrect - it could just be that the clubs delegate that decision to MST.

[jimbomit]

Just to clarify, the response posted is from (RAC)MSA the governing body.

Still no response from BRSCC, has anyone tried any other clubs?

[Al Weyman]

I have just noticed one very positive aspect of this transponder/MST set up that is particularly impressive, posting almost instantly or at least on the day, times and results. I was pleasantly surprised to see all the weekend Snetterton results posted by Sunday evening and for the internet literate that must be a very good facility.

[greenamex2]

Have you found the lap by lap breakdown yet!!! That's really cool.

[StephenRae]

Most of us seem to agree more could be made of the timing on the day, what MST do with it when they get it is excellent. I don't know why the timekeepers at the circuit don't send the information from the first part of a race which has been red flagged. I appreciate that this is regarded as a 'none race' but it would be nice to see how you did, if you don't make it to the second part of the race you then become a 'none person'
While I am at it...why was the restart of the last Pre 90 FF race at Oulton made from original grid places not the positions at the red flag?

[Tim Falce]

Don't forget that MST charge the clubs extra for posting the results on the web.

[Ian Sowman]

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Most of us seem to agree more could be made of the timing on the day, what MST do with it when they get it is excellent. I don't know why the timekeepers at the circuit don't send the information from the first part of a race which has been red flagged. I appreciate that this is regarded as a 'none race' but it would be nice to see how you did, if you don't make it to the second part of the race you then become a 'none person'
While I am at it...why was the restart of the last Pre 90 FF race at Oulton made from original grid places not the positions at the red flag?

Race was stopped before the end of two laps (I think).

[diz]

Originally Posted by StephenRae

While I am at it...why was the restart of the last Pre 90 FF race at Oulton made from original grid places not the positions at the red flag?

How many laps had the leader completed when the red flags were displayed and check the regulations. That should answer your question.

[jimbomit]

Just an update,

MSA have informed me it's not them it's a club issue.

I've contacted BRSCC by e-mail on a few occasions and they have not yet responded.

I have asked MST to supply me with a list of transponders which their equipment will pick up, they have not yet responded.

I have found a place in the US that sells the same AMB 260 units for $325, that's £180 with FREE delivery, make your own mind up as to how fair you think that is.

WE ARE NOT BEING TAKEN SERIOUSLY. IF YOU WANT ANYTHING TO HAPPEN, WE NEED TO START BOMBARDING THE MSA AND OUR LOCAL CLUBS DEMANDING AN EXPLANATION.

The only other course of action we can all participate in is to refuse to run with a transponder at any meeting. MAKE THEM LISTEN!!!!

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by jimbomit

I have found a place in the US that sells the same AMB 260 units for $325, that's £180 with FREE delivery, make your own mind up as to how fair you think that is.

Isn't that what they cost here Jimbo?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Isn't that what they cost here Jimbo?

If you stick the VAT that you may get charged when you bring them into the country, it's a lot dearer

[Al Weyman]

Yes I was going to say that.

[midgetman]

What's so annoying about the transponder system is the unexciting way the information is provided for us.

When MGDavid was racing my car at Zandvoort recently, I was able to follow every lap of the race - live - on http://www.mylaps.com/live/ShowTrack2.jsp?tid=1

Even now 2 weeks later you can enter your transponder number and get a listing of yourt race laps, graphically or as .csv or .xls files. And that's every lap, not just your fastest.

MGD - that was a bit posey putting your name to the 'ponder. What happens when you're given a different one next time????

[jimbomit]

Ok it's not huge but we are paying £193.88 at MST and yes there is VAT but you can claim back the US sales tax.

Regardless do you really feel happy paying twice, no matter how exciting it is to see lap times appear as they happen. . . . much like a lap timer?!!!!

[Al Weyman]

I think it would be nice for spectators and competitors alike if they had a giant and instant lap board for all to see. It would definitely add another dimension to spectating especially as most of the tracks you only get to see a tiny part of the action. The infrastructure is now in place it just needs an investment in the giant display.

How good would it be if you had an instant display of your last lap when you are qualifing. Even with a pit crew (whats that?) unless you had radios you would not get this.

[midgetman]

Sorry I wasn't clear. I was able to follow every lap from home in England.

And Al's right - that information needs to be made available to spectators.

At the Silverstone LMES race recently information was pitiful. No reason (apart from not investing in the technology) not to relay times & position to the great unwashed who've all paid handsomely to come in. After all, even a village cricket match has a scoreboard!

Then we in turn can invest in digital readouts in our own cars.......and the cost goes on........

[jimbomit]

So far I've had about quite a lot of responses from those who need a new transponder.

If there are more of you, drop me a quick note as we are trying to negotiate a bulk discount, it won't solve the underlying issues but it may be easier on the wallet if we can mitigate some of the loses we are being forced to carry on behalf of someones poor decisions.

[diz]

Stop trying to source cheaper transponders and start trying to abolish them completely.

[jimbomit]

Diz I totally concur but all i want to do is cover all eventualities.

If we are forced to run I don't want any of us to be out of pocket by any more than is absolutely necessary.

On the issue of getting rid, we need more support, more active support.

Everyone with a vested interest in resolving this issue needs to contact the MSA and their organizing club to ask them why we have to run with them and who is making the decissions.

I'll stand at the front with my banner for as long as I can but with only a few stood behind me change will not happen.

[jimbomit]

I have drafted a letter to send to the BRSCC and MSA

A copy will be at both BRANDS HATCH and CROFT this weekend.

If your interested in getting answers, please sign it.

So far the powers that be seem to have their hearing aids turned low, we need everyone to shout in order to be heard!!

[Larry J-Croft]

Guys,

The last company I worked for made similar equipment to these transponders and I was asked by MST and the MSA to produce a consultancy report on AMB's claim that they could be used for timing. Quite simply they can't. This is because the MSA time to a thousandth of a second. The magnetic field of the system (125Kz for all the nerds) in the track is about 1.2m wide and the width is affected and therefore varies, by water (puddles), the atmosphere and other environmental effects. If you do the numbers to guarantee the .001second accuracy you need to be doing over 700 mph! Also the transponders would all have to be fitted to the same defined point on the car - 2 cars cross the line together, one has the transponder in the back one in the front - who wins?

AMB were invited to the meeting at Motorsport House to discuss this and mysterioulsy failed to turn up.

Radio controlled cars can use them as they are relatively slower, closer to the ground so the fields are much smaller, less effected by the environment and I belive the transponders are all fitted in the same place.

I can also re-iterate that the fault is not with MST. There was a large legal battle between AMB and Chronit some years ago with various claims and counter claims - AMB deliberately altered their system to not read the Chronit transponders. Clearly AMB have won the eventual battle, but to me it is pretty small minded of them to have gone this route.

Just out of interest we did have look inside an AMB tag - they probably cost about £9.00 to make. That said you do have to allow for relative small numbers and the need to make a profit, but the phrase 'rip off' still springs to mind.

LJC