IMSA Race TUSC: Lone Star Le Mans at COTA

[Rcz]

Well, the Glen now has a lot of run off that can be abused to be fair. Mainly on the first turn.

But yeah most tracks here have grass, dirt, and walls to punish those who go off track

[Matt]

You won't gain an advantage from the T1 runoff at the Glen in a sportscar. The kerb is way too aggressive.

[nasportscar]

Data analysis http://nasportscar.com/bens-analysis...-the-americas/

[Mike E]

Only just watching the race now. The track limits thing is beyond a joke. And it totally misses the point of tarmac run off. Bizarre.

[Rcz]

I like race, the runoff was fine with me.

[TheMightyM]

Jeremy Shaw tweets:

Upon reflection, and to my surprise, I preferred IMSA's tracks limits "interpretation" to the FIA WEC's. Why? Consistency

Exactly.

[Lanky Turtle]

Last year they had problems with the astroturf tearing up at turn 19, so this year they removed it completely and I think that's what led to this. It's kind of funny to watch, but I don't mind it one way or the other. Maybe they should reconfigure the turn based on the line the cars were naturally taking. Or they could dump enough loose gravel and sand out there to make it unusable.

[Mike E]

The point of the tarmac run offs (misguided as it may be) is to give the driver space and time to recover from an off track excursion before hitting a wall. Allowing drivers to use the run off as part of the track raises cornering speeds and takes the cars closer to the barriers. In other words it achieves exactly the opposite of what was intended.

[joeb]

Nobody was making the drivers use the extra tarmac. If they felt it unsafe they could have stayed on the intended surface.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by joeb

Nobody was making the drivers use the extra tarmac. If they felt it unsafe they could have stayed on the intended surface.

The works Porsche did punt another car out there though. So strictly speaking, the ones wanting to use more run off were dictating what others could do. That very situation made it a situation which cannot be run on most weekends, as you'll end up with a lot of contacts where a driver wanted to use more tarmac than the other.

I also don't feel that it's acceptable that in what is apparently a world class racing series, and the top tier in America, second top in the entire world, that the track limits are defined by the drivers opinion of what was safe and unsafe. If you opened up that idea to the rest of the sporting regulations, then lets leave it up to the drivers to decide just how much car contact they think is safe. I bet that wouldn't be abused!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by joeb

Nobody was making the drivers use the extra tarmac. If they felt it unsafe they could have stayed on the intended surface.

Yes, your competitors were making you do it. Either by potentially being "offline" and potentially putting yourself at risk (mentioned above) or by the fact that trying to stay in track limits was going to cost you positions.

And no offense, but the "feel unsafe, don't race" line is old and worn out.

My overall opinion is that the fans are being robbed of better racing. When the track is that wide that you can go anywhere, nobody is really fighting over track position. And while hypothetically a new "racing line" should appear that everyone would fight over, in reality that wasn't happening. They were all over the place.



Richard

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

My overall opinion is that the fans are being robbed of better racing. When the track is that wide that you can go anywhere, nobody is really fighting over track position. And while hypothetically a new "racing line" should appear that everyone would fight over, in reality that wasn't happening. They were all over the place.

Have you ever raced anything in your life? It doesn't sound like it.

-mike

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

Have you ever raced anything in your life? It doesn't sound like it.

-mike

No offense Mike, but unless you can expand upon that, that's a pretty poor comment. So because we haven't raced, we can't judge racing? Because those run offs sure as hell didn't give us good racing.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

No offense Mike, but unless you can expand upon that, that's a pretty poor comment. So because we haven't raced, we can't judge racing? Because those run offs sure as hell didn't give us good racing.

Yes. If you haven't raced, you have no clue what people may or may not be "fighting over" on a race track.

And that's fine, but you can't claim to understand what's going through the heads of the people out there doing the driving.

-mike

[tux]

My view on the track limits was clear a few posts back but at least everyone was on a level playing field. For that IMSA should be applauded.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

I was at COTA for the weekend so I'm just now able to come on and make my comments.

I see that we have differing opinions on the track limits issue, you don't flame me for mine, I won't flame you for yours. So here goes:

What I witnessed from IMSA was a complete joke, laughing-stock, amateur, pathetic excuse for a race. Track limits are a fundamental part of racing, and to completely ignore this just left me flabbergasted.

Worse, it left me completely dis-interested. To the point that I only watched ⅓ of the race, the rest of my time during the race spent drinking beers in the parking lot.

We can't enforce it. What a pathetic excuse. The WEC is able to enforce it, oh wait, that's right, because they are a professional racing series. And just say you can't effectively enforce it, I have an easy solution. If you're caught disrespecting track limits a drive through, one minute penalty, second time a two minute penalty, third three and so on. You think anyone would dare disrespect track limits with those kinds of penalties?

Besides the underlying most important issue, that this was all one big F-U to safety. I mean what if a car ran into issues and pulled off line in a turn, oh right, there is no off line in a turn. So I guess that guy is getting nailed.

But then again they've shown already they don't care too much about safety...

Rant done, interest in series done. Peace out everyone. Straw that broke the camels back.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

Worse, it left me completely dis-interested. To the point that I only watched ⅓ of the race, the rest of my time during the race spent drinking beers in the parking lot.

Hey I can't fault your use of time!

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

We can't enforce it. What a pathetic excuse. The WEC is able to enforce it, oh wait, that's right, because they are a professional racing series.

I wasn't able to watch all of the WEC race, but some others have noted that track limits may have been irregularly enforced, so I don't think the WEC is perfect in that regard. Something we have seen in other races this season as well.

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

Rant done, interest in series done. Peace out everyone. Straw that broke the camels back.

Come on, at least try and make it to Petit, no issues with track limits being disrespected there! You pay for it if you leave the track there!

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Yes, your competitors were making you do it. Either by potentially being "offline" and potentially putting yourself at risk (mentioned above) or by the fact that trying to stay in track limits was going to cost you positions.

And no offense, but the "feel unsafe, don't race" line is old and worn out.

My overall opinion is that the fans are being robbed of better racing. When the track is that wide that you can go anywhere, nobody is really fighting over track position. And while hypothetically a new "racing line" should appear that everyone would fight over, in reality that wasn't happening. They were all over the place.



Richard

You can see the racing line that was formed very clearly in the picture you've posted...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The works Porsche did punt another car out there though. So strictly speaking, the ones wanting to use more run off were dictating what others could do. That very situation made it a situation which cannot be run on most weekends, as you'll end up with a lot of contacts where a driver wanted to use more tarmac than the other.

I also don't feel that it's acceptable that in what is apparently a world class racing series, and the top tier in America, second top in the entire world, that the track limits are defined by the drivers opinion of what was safe and unsafe. If you opened up that idea to the rest of the sporting regulations, then lets leave it up to the drivers to decide just how much car contact they think is safe. I bet that wouldn't be abused!

The limits were defined by the apexes of the corners, much like downhill skiing.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

Yes. If you haven't raced, you have no clue what people may or may not be "fighting over" on a race track.

And that's fine, but you can't claim to understand what's going through the heads of the people out there doing the driving.

-mike

Do I know everything that was going on in the heads of those in the IMSA race at COTA on Friday? No. Do I believe that you have to be a professional driver to understand racing? No. Do I believe cars were still fighting for position on track? Yes. Do I believe there was a less of a fight than if the track limits had been obey? Yes. Do I blame the drivers for the situation? Absolutely not.

While I have been wheel to wheel on track, I am also not going to get into a ****ing contest with you over our respective qualifications to comment. I stand by my comment. I respect your right to disagree.

Originally Posted by Matt

You can see the racing line that was formed very clearly in the picture you've posted...

I get what you are saying, but while there is a lot of rubber on the extreme outside, it was just one of many lines taken in that section. In fact, I think most didn't take that wide of a line (such as the two other cars in that photo).

That photo (taken by me) is in between T19 and T20. I actually spent more time watching T15 and different cars were using consistently different lines. There was no single preferred line and given how wide the track became the difference in lines became exaggerated. I suspect that part of why there were so many different lines was the differing abilities of cars to ride the curbs on exit plus being able to put power down on a mixed surface (i.e. some painted, some not, level of rubber, etc.). Mike would know, maybe he can comment.

Originally Posted by Matt

The limits were defined by the apexes of the corners, much like downhill skiing.

Autocross also comes to mind. You may have two gates that you have to pass through, but in general the one on the inside is what matters and the other is usually ignored. There is nothing wrong with that concept. But in both cases it is a solo timed sport and not (for a lack of a better term) "wheel to wheel".

I get that people will disagree on all of this. I do believe that if IMSA had the ability to do so they would have enforced track limits. Also to reiterate, I don't blame the drivers or teams at all. They only played the game as it was defined. I would have done the same.

Richard

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by joeb

Come on, at least try and make it to Petit, no issues with track limits being disrespected there! You pay for it if you leave the track there!

That's the problem with these modern, F1 circuits and the extra asphalt. You throw a "judgement call" into a very fast paced, spread out event on an enormous circuit; this becomes difficult. Road Atlanta track limits are self punishing, as you say. Some of the old school tracks do have the extra asphalt (Watkins Glen comes to mind), but I really think the series can do what they want. They seem to have said up front that this is the way it's going to be and stuck to it. I applaud them for that.

Agree or not? I am on the fence as if there's asphalt there, racers gonna use it. Does it take away from the event or make the racing more dangerous? I can't say. On the surface, it appears they were consistent with the application of the rules they put in place and we still argue merits for and against. Alrighty then.

I hate COTA on TV and chose not to watch, so my comments are based on the track limits discussion that has blown up here.

I need to get to COTA to appreciate it before it closes.

[nasportscar]

Let's ask some drivers what they felt about the track limits:
http://nasportscar.com/track-limits-a-drivers-take/

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by nasportscar

Obviously it’s not an ideal situation to let drivers exceed track limits, but if everyone is on board and prepared for it, there’s really no harm right now.

Well, the paved run-offs are that - run-offs. If you make them the main track, you severely reduce the space cars which lost it have for braking before impact. This is exactly the direction, safety-wise, I never want to see the sports taking, even if there are drivers who don't see an issue with it (probably feeling they're going slow enough so the run-off is enough, I dunno really, but it sends exactly the wrong signal IMO). Personally, I found it a mix of disgusting and bewildering.

[Coach Ep]

Prime example of what could go wrong if tarmac run off is used as part of the track - and drivers are racing on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzmhzT7rTs

I believe Rui Aguas (the guy that tried to make the pass around the outside on the tarmac run off) broke his back in this accident, don't remember about the other driver, he might have gotten away with minor or no injury.

[Coach Ep]

Obviously, the easiest solution to avoid this whole mess for next year is just to cancel the round at CotA and go to Mid-Ohio instead. WEC should do the same and go to either Sebring (where all the vips and corral cars can park on the grass instead of on dirt lots at wonderful CotA haha) or Road America.