[WEC] 2016 WEC Discussion

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by cokata

Since with the current fuel flow we know that the ICE can't make much more than 550 bhp they will probably place a 400bhp limit on the electric motor(s)

This has been announced, but it only applies to Le Mans 'because it's a Grade 2 circuit'. No power cap anywhere else.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121123

[J Jay]

I thought the knock-on effect of the 1000hp limit might come into play on the regular WEC tracks with shorter straights than La Sarthe, but it seems the hectares of tarmac have seen to that.

About the measuring of the power output - we have ballpark figures from the energy allocations, but doesn't that mean that EoT will also have to factor in? That's another van of worms waiting to be opened.

[Acid09]

I have no issue with this. 1000hp is more than enough for spectacular racing and surely none of us want this thing to end in a tragedy.

Sadly, Le Mans hasn't been a stranger to big crashes in the near past and unfortunately not always with a positive outcome so drawing a line somewhere makes sense. Especially if the other option would be to change the track.

And lets not act like limiting a car to 1000hp would be some sort of sacrilege, just a few years ago this type of power was completely uncommon in LMP1 racing.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by J Jay

About the measuring of the power output - we have ballpark figures from the energy allocations, but doesn't that mean that EoT will also have to factor in? That's another van of worms waiting to be opened.

Autosport is reporting that the limit will actually be an enforced 300kW/402bhp cap on hybrid output at Le Mans, and with the fuel flow regs not really allowing the engines to go beyond 600bhp, the limit is easily achieved. That limit on the hybrid output is Le Mans-only anyway.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Acid09

And lets not act like limiting a car to 1000hp would be some sort of sacrilege, just a few years ago this type of power was completely uncommon in LMP1 racing.

Also lets not act like it is the same thing as 1000 bhp from an ICE alone. This is what has always annoyned me with this "ONE THOUSAND horsepower" thing.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by deggis

This is practically just part of the slowdown plan already announced months ago and sounds sensible easy solution to me. I find the total bhp figures overrated anyway and it is an outdated way to calculate hybrid power.

Overrated also because the cars could have "1500" bhp or maybe 1499 or maybe 1501 and they wouldn't look one bit more exciting and actually hard to drive because of all of the electronics, traction control and non-regulated engine maps.

This will obviously direct to use the ERS boost for a longer time instead of maximum instantaneous boost - not just on straights?

Everything is true about the eletronics/TC/engine maps. But, exiting a slow corner with 1500HP deployed instead of 1000HP is VERY visible(either on onboards or outside cameras).

Looking into Porsche's onboard at Cota(with the telemetry graphics), they released their 8MJ during ~22s. This means ~490HP of ERS, which will result in a total power of around 1050-1100HP.

It turns out the rule will(edit:would) make far less of an impact than I was initially thinking but the mindset behind it still seriously ****es me off. WEC should not go the Bernie's circus mentality of too much limitation and regulation. Leave things as free as possible. Too much of "you cannot do this and that", imho.

EDIT: I wrote this all before reading that this is only for Le Mans

[chernaudi]

It will still probably apply the same way that the MJ limits will; a set amount for LM, with other tracks having the adjustment made to scale based on track length.

[TF110]

Theyll just make the power longer. Since theres no push-to-pass or kers button, itll be managed by the software to run extended periods during the lap. So the '1000hp' will be a lot longer than now.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It will still probably apply the same way that the MJ limits will; a set amount for LM, with other tracks having the adjustment made to scale based on track length.

It's a different kind of rule. For a different reason (safety) and a different implementation. As Artur says it's only for Le Mans.

Don't worry though, plenty to be annoyed about still. It is Le Mans only because that is a FIA grade 2 track. *lights fuse and retires*

[Deleted]

I bet if they still went to grade 2s like Road Atlanta where barely 4km track and massive grids would create high traffic densities, they'd still just outline this change for 'LM only'. You don't want traffic jams but quick navigation and clear class separations.

I don't really buy the reasoning for only LM being subjected to this due to "just being grade 2", yes all the tilkerings have laughable parking zones miles to every direction, but Sarthe has narrowed down the difference in the last few years with more asphalt every year, followed by the gradual slowing down of the corners, and barrier/fencing increase. If they asked FIA for Grade 1 surely not too many further tweaks would be required, however there is zero reason for circuit to ask for grade 1 if F1 isn't in anyones plans.

The actual reason I reckon is that ACO acknowledges LM being the only place factory development resources are being diverted to and where the poker hand is shown. They know manufacturers aren't developing rocketships for the leftover dessert races but for LM, that's where they need to (well 'need') to strike em. Elsewhere the setups nor aeros aren't optimal.

Also they know masses only take notice of LM. So if there's hiccup people will take note. Nobody non hardcore is gonna cry for performance changes if there's disaster of sorts in 6 Hours of Shanghai, and even if somebody did the fact the F1 laps the circuit so much faster already yet stays fine would make it backfire

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Artur

Everything is true about the eletronics/TC/engine maps. But, exiting a slow corner with 1500HP deployed instead of 1000HP is VERY visible(either on onboards or outside cameras).

Looking into Porsche's onboard at Cota(with the telemetry graphics), they released their 8MJ during ~22s. This means ~490HP of ERS, which will result in a total power of around 1050-1100HP.

Assuming even now they're able to apply instantly all of it in the corner exists... there are still traction limits.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by deggis

Assuming even now they're able to apply instantly all of it in the corner exists... there are still traction limits.

and there will be more next year if they further limit the sets for the race.

I think the traction limits are maybe the reason why Porsche deployed it's energy for such a long time. The lap fiawec uploaded is from the race and, in qualifying, they might deploy it more agressively, thus demanding more traction from the front tire, even if for shorter time, which may wears the tire more, in some sort of non-linear way. I'm starting to think this 1000HP limit is actually pointless because it seems to me now that they pretty much never exceed 1000HP anyway, expect maybe in Le Mans' qualifying.


Only now I realized that that calculation I made for Cota is actually wrong. Only at Le Mans that 8MJ is allowed. At other tracks it's less but I don't remember the coeficient now. IIRC, for a track like Cota, the energy available is around 5MJ. Which means far less than 1000HP, of hybrid power, during the race on CotA

The calculation with 8MJ puts the total power some 100HP over 1000 but that was with CotA's deployment time. At Le Mans, they might deploy it for longer which could mean less than 1000HP anyway.

I don't like the proposition for next year to limit even more the tyre sets for the race. If regulations forces double stints, Michelin will have to come up with harder tires to ensure they will behave consistently throughout large possible variations of the conditions(track and air temp,) At Silverstone and Spa, it was much cooler and double, even tripple, stinting was no big deal. At Nurb and CotA, they only single stinted and I'm not sure if that was due to Michelin taking softer tires or due to the heat in those two places(I'm betting on the latter). Harder tires would prevent the cars from getting much faster next year again. Not only for the lower traction but also because that might force the use of the hybrid in a longer, less efficient, way.

Well, at least, ACO still allows AWD so that axles handles only with a portion of the total torque

[J Jay]

The ERS allowance for WEC tracks is found by multiplying the 8MJ maximum allowance by the ratio of the WEC cricuit to Le Mans and a factor of 1.55 (to account for it being relatively easy to harvest energy at La Sarthe). So for CoTA:

Originally Posted by Maths genius

8 x [Length(CoTA)/Length(LM)] x 1.55 = 8 x (5513/13629) x 1.55 = 5.02MJ (3 s.f.)

[Artur]

Holy moly, I can't believe I actually remembered it rightly

So, Porsche's ERS was just deploying ~300HP, for ~22s, at CotA. If their ICE produces around 550HP, as speculated, then max power is still a long way from the 1000 limit.

That's why ACO will only impose this for Le Mans, it's useless in other tracks.

It's pretty laughable when I remember some exaggerated articles on how powerfull the LMP1s were believed to be(there were a few saying well over 1000HP, I even remember one claiming 2000HP for Nissan, in the very early stage of it).

[J Jay]

Those figures aren't exactly lies, but they are in the realms of "half-truths" that do not tell the whole story. Quoting massive power outputs gets the headlines, but obviously the more power you use, the less time you can use it for (for a given amount of energy). "Over ONE THOUSAND horsepower (for a second at most)" doesn't get the juices flowing quite as much.

This is where the battery really shines - if necessary, most of the energy can be dumped in a big lump to get past a gaggle of cars that would otherwise slow the car down significantly. If there isn't much traffic to deal with then the energy can be used more evenly to achieve the best possible lap time.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Artur

Holy moly, I can't believe I actually remembered it rightly

So, Porsche's ERS was just deploying ~300HP, for ~22s, at CotA. If their ICE produces around 550HP, as speculated, then max power is still a long way from the 1000 limit.

That's why ACO will only impose this for Le Mans, it's useless in other tracks.

It's pretty laughable when I remember some exaggerated articles on how powerfull the LMP1s were believed to be(there were a few saying well over 1000HP, I even remember one claiming 2000HP for Nissan, in the very early stage of it).

With that fact, it is possible to set fast lap times using prolonged boost periods instead high-powered short bursts. Thats an issue with the capacitor Toyota runs. Next year Audi and Toyota have the benefit of designing a battery hybrid system to take advantage of this new 'limit'.

[Dyson Mazda]

Anyone want to take any shots at what the 2016 WEC grid will look like if VAG goes bankrupt? It is looking like a very real possibility with each passing day. Not to mention their chairman just said that the diesel emissions scandal could pose "an existence-threatening crisis for the company."

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

Anyone want to take any shots at what the 2016 WEC grid will look like if VAG goes bankrupt? It is looking like a very real possibility with each passing day. Not to mention their chairman just said that the diesel emissions scandal could pose "an existence-threatening crisis for the company."

Bankrupt?! VW has $37 billion in cash and equivalents.

There was this reference to racing programs being under review.

Toto Wolff (F1/Mercedes):

“The world doesn't stop turning and it doesn't stop turning for them either,” explained Wolff. “They have a daily business and part of that daily business is marketing, selling cars, and activating various properties. Motor racing is one of those areas.

“They do Le Mans with two brands, they do rallying with VW, and DTM with Audi. I don't think it is going to have an effect on what they do in motor racing.

“Probably what is the right perspective is that this is much bigger than motor racing. And therefore I don't see any impact on these activities.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/wo...ssion-scandal/

[TF110]

VW still increased their sales in September. So theyre not going to be hurting for money on that front. If the recalls get heavy and fines add up, they have other options like selling some stock.

[Acid09]

Racing programs usually come under threat when workers need to be laid off.

Because that is a hard thing to sell to the workers union, going racing while having to let people go. That's what caused the Peugeot programme to end abruptly as well.

So as long as VAG isn't in need to let people go, the programs should be safe. Right now, all they're talking about is that the bonus payments for the employees will be reduced or skipped for a year, sucks for them but that's certainly nothing that's going to force a company to rethink all their current expenses.

[bobec]

Anything is possible. We don't know how this scandal will affect VW/VAG. It's not just about the fines, lawsuits and modification costs, but also about the brand's reputation among customers. Sales can potentially be hit pretty bad in the short-run.

We don't know if this would actually happen, and I personally think VW/VAG will not go bankrupt. But if they do, they can always be bailed out. Doesn't the German government have budget surplus funds that they have no idea how to use? Also, Lower Saxony owns a stake in the company and I'm pretty sure they won't just stand aside and watch.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by bobec

Anything is possible. We don't know how this scandal will affect VW/VAG. It's not just about the fines, lawsuits and modification costs, but also about the brand's reputation among customers. Sales can potentially be hit pretty bad in the short-run.

We don't know if this would actually happen, and I personally think VW/VAG will not go bankrupt. But if they do, they can always be bailed out. Doesn't the German government have budget surplus funds that they have no idea how to use? Also, Lower Saxony owns a stake in the company and I'm pretty sure they won't just stand aside and watch.

Germany cannot afford 300.000 unemployed people, so no, VAG will not close.

[GT6]

But there is a strong possibility that VAG will not survive in the same form as it currently stands, i think that it may split up with the porsche entity being complete separate as they are completely clean whilst those area's that have seen their reputation dented contracting for a period whilst the dust settles

[CTD]

Originally Posted by GT6

But there is a strong possibility that VAG will not survive in the same form as it currently stands, i think that it may split up with the porsche entity being complete separate as they are completely clean whilst those area's that have seen their reputation dented contracting for a period whilst the dust settles

VAG has already changed shape with much more individually divisions.
A split up is unlikely as it would destroy the technology sharing that VAG has invested billions in. Remember that there is platform which spand from Seat to Audi and from Porsche to VW. Something which is planned to increase.

VAG will survive, and let's not forget the huge amount of cash there is in Volkswagen Bank. An entity which hasn't been named in the scandal.

[Artur]

No offense to any member, but I find it pretty astonishing that people considers VAG going bankrupt.

We're talking of the biggest car seller in the planet. A company of very long tradition and high credibility and fidelity among it's clients over the decades.

My personal bet is that the repercution, if any at all, will be felt only in US. Where I live, this was on the news, but instead of VW getting it's reputation tarnished, the tone was more like "look how honored these Germans are. They're are admiting their flaw humbly"

Throughout my life, I have only seen people praising VAG cars and how good they are, from an engineering POV. People always praise it's cars perfomance, reliability and price. Meanwhile, throughout my life, it has not been rare to see people badmouthing the cars of Toyota, Honda, FIAT, Hyundai... eventually a "French" car, at some point.

I'm not surprised the sales haven't diminished, at least so far, and I won't be surprised if VAG breaks the record of sales in a few years. They cheated but they did so with something that most people don't have as priority(it's not like a safety issue)

We're all just guessing now, and my opinion is no better than anyone else's, but that's my view on it. VAG is way way too big to go bankrupt for a relatively small thing like this IMHO.

Maybe one of the brands will leave WEC(Audi, as Porsche really seems to be committed for quite a few more years) but no way I see the German State even letting such an important coorporation getting into heavy trouble. For instance, the city of Wolfsburg(highest average wage in Germany) is entirely dependant on VW