The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

So the TS030 engine is already at 40% efficiency?!

That puts their statement that above 40% efficiency is a dream that nobody can achieve, into a different perspective.
source: http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2012...k-to-wrc-30907

Apparently, Toyota declared in the SAE 2011 High Efficiency IC Engines Symposium to have achieved above 42% efficiency in R&D prototypes:
source: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011...-20110411.html

From everything I have seen 40% figure seems BS unless they are counting it different somehow. Maybe the Toyota scale goes from 5 to 105? The article clearly states that a specifically tuned gasoline engine not suitable for racing tops out at maybe 38% max efficiency as measured by the standard BSFC.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Félix

We're relying on experimental/marketing data on a range extender for future Priuses to make assumptions about a racing engine? Efficiency inevitably goes down as you scale up from a low power generator to a race engine that has to make 4-5 times that power figure and account for 75% of a racecar's power output (ie rev harder and fit inside a race car).

Prius engines can be compared to similarly low-power diesel engines: the Mercedes/smart CDI engine was most certainly already at least this efficient 15 years ago. VAG's unbeatable racing diesels came almost a decade later...so a petrol race engine benefiting from recent advances might also be a decade away; or maybe a few years away. It most certainly is very unlikely to be ready soon, especially when Toyota seems to be $kimping and talking about barely updating their current (old) race engine.

Where did you see that? They just said they've achieved a 40% thermal efficiency. Not bad for an "old" engine, yeah?

Porsche will be interesting because their technology is most probably cutting edge with a brand new race engine and it's coming from the VAG group who have pretty much proven that they're the #1 makers of fine engine technology in the 21st century. Except Audi always looked like they were behind Peugeot in the engine race when they were competing against each other: and yet they were able to dominate, mainly in spite of their slight technical disadvantage. One could even argue that they don't have to push as hard now that no one will be using the same technology; they only have to use the inherent technical edge the regs and their technology give them (torque and consumption) to refine a proven race engine family into a package that is reliable and powerful enough not to be beaten by engines using technology that, until proven otherwise, remains inherently technically inferior.

Its not so easy. Porsche has been away from lmp for a while.

Relying on Audi's performance as the single diesel entry to balance the future engine regs could very well lead us to another decade of Audi magically improving just enough every year to beat other entrants and their inherently inferior technology; therefore I think the ACO should stack the regs *artificially* against them for a year or two, just enough so that they would unquestionably no longer be #1 technology-wise, in the interest of the sport.

Is that a wise decision for the ACO? I wonder if they're scared in a sense to upset Audi moreso than other makers since they've been there for the past decade and a half!

Originally Posted by chewymonster

From everything I have seen 40% figure seems BS unless they are counting it different somehow. Maybe the Toyota scale goes from 5 to 105? The article clearly states that a specifically tuned gasoline engine not suitable for racing tops out at maybe 38% max efficiency as measured by the standard BSFC.

What article are you referring to?

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by TF110

Where did you see that? They just said they've achieved a 40% thermal efficiency. Not bad for an "old" engine, yeah?

Its not so easy. Porsche has been away from lmp for a while.


Is that a wise decision for the ACO? I wonder if they're scared in a sense to upset Audi moreso than other makers since they've been there for the past decade and a half!

What article are you referring to?

"The engine used in the first- and second-generation Prius (the 1.5L 1NZ-FXE) had a thermal efficiency of about 37%; the thermal efficiency of the new 1.8L unit in the third-generation Prius (2ZR-FXE) has a thermal efficiency of about 38%.


In the 2ZR engine (third-generation Prius), some of the main technologies Toyota applied are the Atkinson cycle with variable valve timing to control intake valve timing, cooled EGR, and lowered friction. (In the 1NZ engine, Toyota reduced friction 21.1% compared to an engine for a comparable conventional vehicle; the 2ZR engine in the newest Prius drops that another 26.8%, in large part by the removal of parasitic loads via the hybrid system (e.g., no alternator)."

Hence the 40% figure makes no sense otherwise the Prius would have a .6 liter 10,000 RPM screamer instead of making peak power @ 5,200 RPM with an Atkinson cycle. The article goes on about what kind of technologies might get a gasoline engine to 40% thermal efficiency (without a turbo) and none of those are applicable to racing. A conventional gas engine is below 35% from what I understand. The only way the 40% figure can make any sense is if you use to combined efficiency of the whole system with the hybrid part?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011...-20110411.html

[TF110]

The latest 3rd generation Prius was introduced in 2009, like I said before. Now they're saying the next generation can exceed 40% efficiency. But its not a race car engine either. With the TS030 I wouldn't be surprised to see it have a better efficiency than a 4 year old prius engine. They haven't explained specifically, but there has been talk that this engine is a bit different from the unit Rebellion are using. Maybe the hybrid system is included, which wouldn't seem so far fetched. It is "one unit" afterall. But I still think it's going to be hard to achieve the 42% Murata was upset about, perhaps things have changed.

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by TF110

The latest 3rd generation Prius was introduced in 2009, like I said before. Now they're saying the next generation can exceed 40% efficiency. But its not a race car engine either. With the TS030 I wouldn't be surprised to see it have a better efficiency than a 4 year old prius engine. They haven't explained specifically, but there has been talk that this engine is a bit different from the unit Rebellion are using. Maybe the hybrid system is included, which wouldn't seem so far fetched. It is "one unit" afterall. But I still think it's going to be hard to achieve the 42% Murata was upset about, perhaps things have changed.

Naturally aspirated gasoline engines don't do better than 35% from everything I have seen. Everything in the Prius engine is designed for maximum efficiency, a high RPM racing engine is the exact opposite. Again, the Prius would have a 10,000 RPM engine if magically that would be better. The article quoted experimental technologies not necessarily applicable to actual engines. The only way the 40% figure makes any sense to me is if they are including the total system but that's measuring one thing against another. I am going to take a look at the article to see which one they are discussing.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

Naturally aspirated gasoline engines don't do better than 35% from everything I have seen. Everything in the Prius engine is designed for maximum efficiency, a high RPM racing engine is the exact opposite. Again, the Prius would have a 10,000 RPM engine if magically that would be better. The article quoted experimental technologies not necessarily applicable to actual engines. The only way the 40% figure makes any sense to me is if they are including the total system but that's measuring one thing against another. I am going to take a look at the article to see which one they are discussing.

The prius is not an actual atkins cycle engine. It mimics one by the valve timing. So even there, there are gains to be had. What youve seen is obviously not the same as what these auto makers are able to do it would appear.

[Japanese Samurai]

According to Motor Fan Illustrated magazine's blog,
all the parts of TS030 became 2013 spec for the first time in the Fuji spec.
http://ameblo.jp/motorfan-i/entry-11644696234.html

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by TF110

The prius is not an actual atkins cycle engine. It mimics one by the valve timing. So even there, there are gains to be had. What youve seen is obviously not the same as what these auto makers are able to do it would appear.

I searched all of over and still have not seen anyone claim to have a regular gasoline engine much over 35% max efficiency. The best I have seen is 240 grams of fuel used per kw for a gas engine. But I can easily come up with proof of diesel engines that are at 41%, for example the Audi V12 TDI that was in the Q7, only using 204 grams per kw at its peak efficiency.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

According to Motor Fan Illustrated magazine's blog,
all the parts of TS030 became 2013 spec for the first time in the Fuji spec.
http://ameblo.jp/motorfan-i/entry-11644696234.html

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but can't help but find that rather odd given that 2013 is nearly over...what has taken them so long?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but can't help but find that rather odd given that 2013 is nearly over...what has taken them so long?

Probably budget limitations..as usual.

[TF110]

Carry over parts from 2012? 2013 parts being new is them possibly testing new components for next year. This was a question posed to them by radio LeMans. They explained that things that could be carried over or tested for next year's car (2014) on this year's car are now being done. Davidson also said that the new aero package for the sprint races are making more downforce than last year's with equal or less drag.

Remember that Fuji would techinically be only their 2nd round with the package since they crashed out so soon in Brazil. Like 2012, they went from Silverstone 30-40 seconds behind to winning in Brazil in their 2nd race with the high downforce package.

[Japanese Samurai]

According to Japanese Autosport magazine,
Hisatake Murata (Toyota) says that the thermal efficiency of the engine of our hybrid system (2013 model) is over 40%.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

According to Japanese Autosport magazine,
Hisatake Murata (Toyota) says that the thermal efficiency of the engine of our hybrid system (2013 model) is over 40%.

Combined efficiency of engine and hybrid? Thats very good.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Toyota are apparently going to run two cars as well for the last WEC round in Bahrain according to AutoHebdo.

[Acid09]

Excellent news, looks like the visit to Japan did something good on the funding side

Toyota seems to very confident in their chances all of a sudden, their Shanghai pre-race PR release is almost cocky in tone considering their usual understatement-demeanor.

Looks like they have found the sweet spot of the car at Fuji.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Excellent news, looks like the visit to Japan did something good on the funding side

Toyota seems to very confident in their chances all of a sudden, their Shanghai pre-race PR release is almost cocky in tone considering their usual understatement-demeanor.

Looks like they have found the sweet spot of the car at Fuji.

It was the spell-binding pace on their drive to victory at Fuji which did it, I'm sure.

Seriously though, I'm glad they have committed two cars for the rest of the season. Makes things much more interesting.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Excellent news, looks like the visit to Japan did something good on the funding side

Toyota seems to very confident in their chances all of a sudden, their Shanghai pre-race PR release is almost cocky in tone considering their usual understatement-demeanor.

Looks like they have found the sweet spot of the car at Fuji.

Maybe like Japanese Samurai pointed out in his link, the "new parts" are clicking and have boosted Toyota's performance? They said whatever they can test for next year on the current car is now on going. So hopefully the pace continues to 2014.

[Mal]

Lets hope it is a sign of increased commitment going into next year

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Toyota seems to very confident in their chances all of a sudden, their Shanghai pre-race PR release is almost cocky in tone considering their usual understatement-demeanor.

Looks like they have found the sweet spot of the car at Fuji.

Or the track suits Toyota very much with all the slow corners. Audi's PR release is filled with references to the 120 km/h rule:

At the premiere at Shanghai a year ago, Audi saw that the cornering radii of the modern Grand Prix circuit have a particularly disadvantageous effect on the R18 e-tron quattro. In six of the narrow turns, the hybrid race car is slower than 120 km/h. But only above this speed, the e-tron quattro hybrid system is allowed to use the recovered energy for acceleration again – as prescribed by the regulations.
...
Chris Reinke (Head of LMP): “... The track characteristics pose a great challenge because, due to the regulations, we can’t use our hybrid system in the narrow turns."
...
Benoît Tréluyer: “I think Shanghai will be the most difficult race of the year. We’ve clearly seen that our engineers managed to make a big step with the car. But the track with its corners does not suit our car at all. Unfortunately, we’re not allowed to use our hybrid energy as freely as our competitor. Winning in China won’t be easy.”

source: https://www.audi-motorsport.info/v2/...single/id/8050

[TF110]

Bahrain will be better for them in that respect, but the 7 zones are probably going to favor Toyota even more since they rely on the power advantage of the capacitor.

Shanghai looks like this for lmp1 speeds


And the hybrid zones are turns 1, 6, 11 and 14.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by TF110

Bahrain will be better for them in that respect, but the 7 zones are probably going to favor Toyota even more since they rely on the power advantage of the capacitor.

Shanghai looks like this for lmp1 speeds


And the hybrid zones are turns 1, 6, 11 and 14.

They did not use that track layout last year - have they changed it for this year?

[Félix]

Originally Posted by TF110

Where did you see that? They just said they've achieved a 40% thermal efficiency. Not bad for an "old" engine, yeah?

I hadn't seen your post, sorry for late answer. Regarding Toyota not showing any sign of using a new engine, no official information has been out there except that Rebellion seems to be working with the same engine and that Vasselon seems to be saying that they'll keep on using the current engine and possibly improve on it. Please add any other relevant info/quote I might have missed. What I would like to see and what I think is needed to be optimally competitive with something based on the current engine is a displacement increase and a direct fuel injection system. But then again, one might argue that Toyota's superior hybrid system could compensate and give them enough of an edge to make up for what could very well be the least efficient of the big three's engines.

Originally Posted by TF110

Its not so easy. Porsche has been away from lmp for a while.

OK, so the RS Spyder engine is about as old and presumably fairly similar to the Toyota-TMG V8, right? Well Porsche got around to adding DFI to it during the last 2 races of that 3+ year program - which might make it look like that program was $kimping too. Yet when that engine appeared, they claimed 5% improvement of fuel consumption and a torque gain (although that was with air restrictors instead of the upcoming fuel-flow limited rules so we can't be sure such gains would transfer similarly to the new rules). Now Porsche chose not to retain that engine for the current project, even though it has to be the most efficient ACO spec 3.4 V8 ever since it's the only one that managed to add DFI while revving over 10k rpm. The new mystery engine might not be bulletproof and sorted at the beginning, but it is undoubtedly better than their previous V8 and thus better than Toyota's similarly old V8 - unless they revamp it and add DFI and higher displacement to move it towards Porsche's new mystery engine's that will be the efficiency leader for non diesels based on all that.

Please do add any bit of info I might be missing there. And I have to add that all this engine talk might not mean that much since most of modern motorsport performance relies predominantly on aero: so engines that might well sound inferior could be part of a winning package if it has superior aero and/or the best ERS. Something to get worked up about at last...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Mal

They did not use that track layout last year - have they changed it for this year?

Thats 2012's track map from Audi. They used the full layout like F1 and will this year too. You can check the shanghai race thread, I think I posted the picture from the WEC's website that shows the same track layout.

[vincegail]

Slightly off topic, sorry, but some very nice pictures of the GT-One to be found here:

http://mikefrison.com/2306

[Mal]

Originally Posted by TF110

Thats 2012's track map from Audi. They used the full layout like F1 and will this year too. You can check the shanghai race thread, I think I posted the picture from the WEC's website that shows the same track layout.

The track you show is the 'Endurance track' which strangely they did not use - they used the F1 track which is slightly reduced - see here:

http://www.bahraingp.com/AboutBIC/Ou...s/default.aspx