EuroBOSS

[PeterMorley]

Backfire
You clearly take a reasoned 'outsiders' point of view.
As a friend of Roger's my position could be suggested to be biased, but my personal experience in event organisation and publishing has taught me that it is very difficult to establish something new and very easy to copy something that already exists.
I also understand the difficulties of getting paid these days - it takes me months to get paid by someone representing the outfit who are meant to be speeding up payments to businesses!
As you say Roger was/is always open to discuss the future of EuroBOSS, but someone was apparently determined to create an indycar style split rather than pursue the sensible option.
None of these are biased opinions but I'm sure Christian etc. would take them to be hence I've kept a low profile.
As for Roger appearing on the forum I know his computer skills and think that is best avoided!!
I think it is good if the event organisers keep a low profile on these forums, they have their own websites to promote their case and the forums can be left for independent unbiased discussion. Problem is most forums appear to end up being hijacked by some nutter trying to start WW3.
Peter

[Thundersports]

I thought the calenders were set in secret so it could only have been unfortunant that the races were so close.

[Thundersports]

I understand Scott Mansell had a sucessful shakedown of his new Benetton B199 at Mallory Park today.

[zeleracing]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

I understand Scott Mansell had a sucessful shakedown of his new Benetton B199 at Mallory Park today.

great to see him back in action...Kevin was talking about Spa, but it would be nice if he would consider Anderstorp as well...

[Lola]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

It's hard to see how anything could be said to be right about the situation.

Poaching someone else's event and taking advantage of all the effort they have put in over many years is clearly wrong (morally at least).

Comparing an event that is close to most of the competitors to one that is a considerable distance for most of them would be unfair - taking a transporter with tacho limited daily mileage to Portugal could be a 4 day trip from the UK.

But everyone who has been to Portimao says it is an incredible circuit and has immediately made the list of their favourite circuits, so it should become a popular venue.

Sorry I didnt put that over well. What I meant was does Euroboss have the expected grids or are the aledged trouble makers right in saying they dont. I agree its a shame that the series has split when at times they stugled to get one grid. I dont know enough about the situation to comment on the who and whys of the situation. Its just a shame it hapened that way. Although without dragging up the past I tended to agree on some of the comments that a banned member put across.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Lola

Sorry I didnt put that over well. What I meant was does Euroboss have the expected grids or are the aledged trouble makers right in saying they dont. I agree its a shame that the series has split when at times they stugled to get one grid. I dont know enough about the situation to comment on the who and whys of the situation. Its just a shame it hapened that way. Although without dragging up the past I tended to agree on some of the comments that a banned member put across.

Marcel will know more about this, but my observations are:

You can never tell what size the grid will be until very close to the event, since it is basically an expensive hobby nearly all of the participants are affected by other commitments (e.g. business & family) and even if they wanted to do all the events they are rarely lucky enough to be able to do so.

As the new series discovered you really don't know who's going to turn up until you reach the circuit. The complex nature of these cars (& owners!) means there are many reasons why the cars end up unable to race and that can happen just before they set off for the circuit or even after they have arrived.

There was no reason to expect lower grids in Euroboss this year plus there are some interesting new cars and owners around. Apparently some competitors in historic events are attracted by the more relaxed EB atmosphere and the safer nature of the more modern cars appeals to those who worry about such things.

Clearly the split in the series will have an effect on the grids since some of the new series organisers were regular EB competitors, but that does open up the field and makes winning a more realistic prospect which should encourage others.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Marcel will know more about this, but my observations are:

You can never tell what size the grid will be until very close to the event, since it is basically an expensive hobby nearly all of the participants are affected by other commitments (e.g. business & family) and even if they wanted to do all the events they are rarely lucky enough to be able to do so.



Clearly the split in the series will have an effect on the grids since some of the new series organisers were regular EB competitors, but that does open up the field and makes winning a more realistic prospect which should encourage others.

Very true. I agreed with 'the banned member" re cut off dates for cars. There must be hundreds of early F3000 and 80's F1 cars that would fit perfectly into this series that may have been put off having to run against post 2000 cars.

[Chris Wilson]

Originally Posted by Lola

Very true. I agreed with 'the banned member" re cut off dates for cars. There must be hundreds of early F3000 and 80's F1 cars that would fit perfectly into this series that may have been put off having to run against post 2000 cars.

I have a 1991 Lola F3000 with original Mugen engine being rebuilt at Engine Developments. I am not really sure what I am going to do with it, I ran F3 for a few years and just wanted something fast enough to frighten myself before I get too old and fat to get in a single seater. I would welcome a series like the old Welsh Pembrey based series for anything goes single seaters, I can't remember what it was called, but there was always an interesting selection of older, amateur run big single seaters there. There is no way I would be able to make time of commitment to race in Europe though, and now Donington is in limbo it seems even noisy test days are going to be in short supply. Does anyone know if either Silverstone or Mallory would accommodate an unsilenced F3000 on their test days?

It's very disappointing that the BOSS series are now exclusively outside of mainland UK, no doubt time, and travel costs are not an issue to those at the headier end of the exotic market, but to many of us I am sure that the current economic climate precludes such expenditure Am I right in thinking the MSA has some sort of issue with over 2 litre single seaters racing at some circuits, or is that just rumour?

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Chris Wilson

I have a 1991 Lola F3000 with original Mugen engine being rebuilt at Engine Developments. I am not really sure what I am going to do with it, I ran F3 for a few years and just wanted something fast enough to frighten myself before I get too old and fat to get in a single seater. I would welcome a series like the old Welsh Pembrey based series for anything goes single seaters, I can't remember what it was called, but there was always an interesting selection of older, amateur run big single seaters there. There is no way I would be able to make time of commitment to race in Europe though, and now Donington is in limbo it seems even noisy test days are going to be in short supply. Does anyone know if either Silverstone or Mallory would accommodate an unsilenced F3000 on their test days?

It's very disappointing that the BOSS series are now exclusively outside of mainland UK, no doubt time, and travel costs are not an issue to those at the headier end of the exotic market, but to many of us I am sure that the current economic climate precludes such expenditure Am I right in thinking the MSA has some sort of issue with over 2 litre single seaters racing at some circuits, or is that just rumour?

The biggest problem with races in the UK is the circuits themselves, apart from noise issues the prices they are demanding are incredible being multiples of what they were a few years ago.

It was cheaper for someone from the UK to test a car in France (including getting the transporter across the channel) than the UK and given he was in the South it took him less time to get to the circuit!

It seems that a UK circuit can make so much money out of things like track days (which have the bonus of having far lower staffing costs) that they would rather not be bothered with holding races!
Of course the fact there are so many different race series fighting for the lmited number of race days also drives the price up.

I think you are alright testing un-silenced at Mallory, we took our 1955 Connaught F1 there which is unsilenced and very loud, but that was a few years ago - certainly a lot of 3 liter F1 cars have tested there recently.

There are a lot of UK & Irish drivers who say they would happily do UK races, but the reality is when it does happen they don't always turn up and it really doesn't cost that much more to race abroad (especially if you have to pay for hotel accomodation etc). Depending on where you are starting from it doesn't always take much longer to get to the circuit - and it might be easier to tempt the rest of the team (e.g. missus) to spend some time abroad.

Not sure about MSA & 2 litres, but the circuit requirements vary with the different classes of car, there are various FIA categories/requirements so it is unlikely you'be able to race something like a Jaguar R4 at Cadwell Park (which is a shame!).

I'm sure you would be welcome in Euroboss, I think a hillclimber ran a Mugen engined 3000 car in a Euroboss race not so long ago - and you can up the rev-limit which would help maintain your attention!

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Lola

Very true. I agreed with 'the banned member" re cut off dates for cars. There must be hundreds of early F3000 and 80's F1 cars that would fit perfectly into this series that may have been put off having to run against post 2000 cars.

I just checked the regs and any 3000 is eligible (and larger engines are allowed) as are 80s F1 cars (with original engine and no HBs).
With the early 3000s it is cheaper to fit a 3.5 litre engine than the original one since HF1 pay so much for DFVs these days, that makes a light nimble car that could do very well in the right circumstances (and as customer cars 3000s tend to have large cockpits suitable for the less anorexic driver).

The class structure groups cars of similar performance so you might be sharing the circuit with faster cars but there should be someone of similar performance to play with and it isn't as if the performance differential is so big they will be lapped loads of times.

[Thundersports]

Peter has covered alot of what I was going to write ie Mallory etc. Hillclimber the bespectacled Roger Kilty was very sucessful in Euroboss as was the under rated Earl Goddard.

As I have posted here before I think Euroboss needs to take a different direction and go back to its roots to survive; a cut off point of pre 2001 cars (a pre 2000 class would prohibite 3 british competitors instantly) allow 2L cars ie F2 and F3 hybrids in, implement a 110% qualifying rule to weed out the stragglers who would pose a speed differencial danger, you then have a series where F3000 and older F1 cars have a competitive home ok the 3 post 2000 cars are the Arrows of H-Engineering and the Woodcocks but they rarely see the chequered flag.

And yes the man at the MSA wouldn't want them at Cadwell! However Brands, Silverstone, Mallory, Snetterton, Oulton Park, Anglesey and an away day at Mondello? Seven possible venues........

[PeterMorley]

Just had a look at the times from Hockenheim last weekend (don't have any EB times to hand).
Applying a 110% rule would only have allowed the top 9 cars into the race, half a dozen cars were over the cut-off time (the 10th was on the cusp).
You certainly have a point and there has to be a way of introducing other types of cars but it looks like there is already a large time differential (which might not affect the quickest smaller cars) but the differential would need considering.

[Thundersports]

Maybe a 110% rule would be to draconian however if you allowed smaller engined cars there would be a need to weed out the very slow cars ie Lohmanns at Brands was a problem in my eyes. And as Mr de Boer found out in testing at HH you "arrive" at them in the wrong place.

[zeleracing]

i think any 110% or 120% rule would fail, because we´ve seen the variety of competitiveness level in EB...some drivers are on it, others just cruise and enjoy themselves driving their cars to their personal limit...

As for 2 liter cars...we´ve seen what hapened to the Interseries in the late 90s. what used to be a Sportscar and Can-Am racing series became a single seater series and when they started to allow in 2.0 liter cars in the early noughties it only took a few years to become a Formula Renault and F3 series for hobby-racers.
BOSS should remain a Big Open Single Seaters racing series and 2.0 liter cars, even F2´s are just not "big enough" to be the real deal.

It´s easy to say this and that could be cahnged and could be done...whatever we do change, there will be always someone moaning and complaining ;-)

i.e. a 2001 cut-off date would prevent all the WSbN, WSbR, newer F3000, Panoz Champ Cars etc. to join, which would further reduce the size of the grid.

Of course there is a big number of late 80s or early 90s F3000 and F1 cars around...but i doubt that there´s 10 of them in proper race-ready condition...and it does not help to have cars on the grid which retire after 5 or 10 laps.
At least the WS cars are easy to run and complete the racing distances easy...this is also a factor which we should bear in mind.

As i said before...whatever you do - there´ll be always someone who does not like your way of doing it...;-)

[PeterMorley]

Apart from WS & Champcars there's a couple of grids full of recent 'big' cars for sale at the moment - A1GP cars would fit the description and I assume Bob Berridge could be tempted to let go of some GPMasters cars.
The failure of both those series just goes to show that the backing of wealthy people doesn't guarantee survival.

[HaRdCoRe-WeZ]

If I had to start a BOSS racing serie i would make a split between pre- and post 1995 cars. No seperation between WsR/F1/F3000 or IRL cars. And i agree, a BOSS serie is a BOSS serie and not an Formula Renault Cup.

[andy97]

Must be time for an Anglo-Irish Formula Libre series?????????

[Thundersports]

Euroboss started with a mix of 2L/F1 cars I think the WSR cars put alot of peaple bringing out there older F1/F3000 cars ie a 1995 Jordan worth 200k against a old WSR car worth 30k, there is a distinct difference in risk invoved financially and the WSR car will beat most the F1 cars. The point i'm trying to get across is that Euroboss needs to be different from Boss and offer something different to survive, let Boss have the very rich men with the newer cars and get back to the Libre roots.

[courageous]

I don't especially like the idea, but just throwing it out there:
weight handicap cars depending on where they come from (F1 should be faster than Indycars which in turn should be faster than F3000/WSbR - obviously with exeptions for cars significantly older).

And I know it is a different kettle of fish, but when F1 introduced minimum qual times the back of the grid suddenly found 4-5 seconds on their comparative lap times (before they didn't have to try so didn't)

[zeleracing]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

Euroboss started with a mix of 2L/F1 cars I think the WSR cars put alot of peaple bringing out there older F1/F3000 cars ie a 1995 Jordan worth 200k against a old WSR car worth 30k, there is a distinct difference in risk invoved financially and the WSR car will beat most the F1 cars. The point i'm trying to get across is that Euroboss needs to be different from Boss and offer something different to survive, let Boss have the very rich men with the newer cars and get back to the Libre roots.

good luck to you finding a WSbR car for 30k...you won´t find one

and talking about 200k F1 cars...how many Jags and early 00s F1 are there still in the garage waiting for the WS cars to disappear?

early 90s F1 are worth between 70 and 150k max nowadays... so there´s very little which separates these two types of cars in terms of money...

just wait for the first GP2 cars to hit the track soon...wondering what the next excuse will be for the expensive kit owners...

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

old WSR car worth 30k

I've been thinking of buying one of these for a while but not seen much below 80k.

[Thundersports]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

I've been thinking of buying one of these for a while but not seen much below 80k.

Doh i'm feeling humble as I have been mis-informed! Apologies.

[PeterMorley]

Those who think Euroboss grid sizes are small should be glad they aren't Mini fans.
Apparently the first of the new Masters Mini races attracted 6 Minis!
Given there were about 30 at Goodwood and their cost is rather lower than a Euroboss car that must have been really disappointing.

[zeleracing]

FYI

the coming Anderstorp and Vallelunga racemeetings had to be cancelled due to a lack of interest from competitors, long travel distances, cars not being ready, etc etc.

[zeleracing]

Portimao Superprix Rescheduled to be the 2010Season Finale


A new date for the Portuguese venue was agreed yesterday. The EuroBOSS series will race at the Autodromo do Algarve/Portimao 30th/31st October 2010.

The race meeting, rescheduled because of the air travel chaos caused by volcanic activity, will be the season finale for the 2010 edition of the EuroBOSS series.

The Group C Racing Series and other Touring, GT and Sports Classics will be racing on the same weekend. The beautiful Algarve coast, fresh mariscos, sunshine and warm weather in combination with one of the most impressive circuit layouts and packed racing action will guarantee for a perfect season finale.