T Break thread 2023

[Gerard C]

Some months ago, we had some busses in Paris area catching fire. All from the same builder. Under investigation… Knowing the battery/ bus builder no news, good news!

[crmalcolm]

While it is true that a fire in an EV can be more difficult to bring under control, it is false to claim that they are more common or can happen on their own.

https://driveelectriccolorado.org/myth-buster-evs-fire/

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Battery EVs are far more likely to catch fire by themselves than is admitted by most of the media .
Ferry companies have started to not carry them because of fire risk and the difficulty in putting out the fire .https://rairfoundation.com/fire-haza...rs-on-ferries/

Also thinking ahead when (and if) the majority of traffic are EVs, the thought of motorway pile ups are quite frightening. Will they also be banning them from tunnels ? as most of us can remember the Mt Blanc tunnel fire in 1999 that killed 39 people. A few hundred EV vehicles i think would be impossible to extinguish on a motorway let alone a tunnel !

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

While it is true that a fire in an EV can be more difficult to bring under control, it is false to claim that they are more common or can happen on their own.

https://driveelectriccolorado.org/myth-buster-evs-fire/

An interesting article there, and while I have no cause to doubt the claims made, one part did catch my eye:

"To reduce the risk of fires in malfunctioning electric models, it is important to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer, including maintaining a charge between 20–80% and avoiding leaving the car charging unattended overnight."

So, if you want to be 'safe' in your EV, then you can really only use 60% of your - in all likelihood - already inadequate range, and you can't leave it on charge overnight (unless you're willing to sit up all night to watch it), which surely is just precisely when most people are going to want to charge them?

I think I'll pass, all things considered, until someone comes up with a better idea...

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

While it is true that a fire in an EV can be more difficult to bring under control, it is false to claim that they are more common or can happen on their own.

https://driveelectriccolorado.org/myth-buster-evs-fire/

It also said "Statistics from 2015 showed that 174,000 vehicle fires were reported, and almost all of them involved gasoline vehicles"
It would be interesting to know the percentage of EVs vs ICE vehicles at the time ? most of us know that "statistics" can prove anything

[Paul D]

My guess - and I hasten to add it is no more than a guess - would be that, in the USA, in 2015, EVs probably accounted for about a half of one percent of the cars on the road there.

To be fair to the article however, it does then go on to make the comparison measured by miles driven which, on the face of it, still puts the EV in a more favourable light. That is, until you consider the fact that you can't do that many miles in your EV, because, as we learnt from the article, you can realistically only use 60% of your charge, and you won't even have a full charge anyway when you set off in the morning, because you didn't want to stay up all night on firewatch!

In your ICE vehicle, you can use your full tank of gas, and then you can refill in five minutes and keep driving - so of course, ICE vehicles do lots more miles.

[morninggents]

[QUOTE=GORDON STREETER; most of us know that "statistics" can prove anything [/QUOTE]

True, Gordon. 73 percent of statistics are made up.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by morninggents

True, Gordon. 73 percent of statistics are made up.

No... I'm sure you've got that wrong. I'd heard it was fifty - fifty, but with only a 10% chance of that!

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Battery EVs are far more likely to catch fire by themselves than is admitted by most of the media .
Ferry companies have started to not carry them because of fire risk and the difficulty in putting out the fire .https://rairfoundation.com/fire-haza...rs-on-ferries/

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

While it is true that a fire in an EV can be more difficult to bring under control, it is false to claim that they are more common or can happen on their own.

https://driveelectriccolorado.org/myth-buster-evs-fire/

Thanks for the two links guys and having read both articles I am now even less sure about the fire safety of EV's. I'm sure that possibly both could be sited as propaganda aimed towards a particular cause, but agree that using vehicle data from 2015 and 'miles travelled compared to fires' does allow the 'statistics' to be weighted in EV's favour. In regard to the extinguishing of EV fires, I have been told that our local fire service now have a vehicle that carries a huge container full of (or that can be filled with) water which they put recently extinguished EV's into to prevent reignition. One further thought that this has brought to mind (and I'm certainly no chemist) is what additional problems this will create with regard to pollution (of the water) and the safe disposal of the burned out remains.
I wonder what the next great solution to the supposed problem will be?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Thanks for the two links guys and having read both articles I am now even less sure about the fire safety of EV's.

I think there are two parts to this, and they are regularly conflated in a way that gives a false impression.

To the first part - are EVs more likely to catch fire than an ICE car? There is no evidence that confirms this. The amount of data is low for EVs currently, but there does seem to be more evidence that suggests an EV is less likely to catch fire. I'm sure specific examples can be put forward, but the same is true of ICE cars too (BMW recalling more than a million vehicles in 2022 for a fire risk as an example).

To the second part - are EV fires more difficult to handle? I think this is true. There are lots of examples where an EV fire has proven more difficult to handle than anticipated, and the effects of an EV fire tend to be more extreme.

If you look at it from a risk management perspective, then you could consider:
Terminate the risk - ban EVs from production.
Treat the risk - this is where the likelihood vs impact assessment is made. You can reduce the chance of an EV fire happening, but they are already relatively rare and so this might not bring the risk down to a tolerable level. So, you are left with reducing the impact. Being able to tackle an EV fire will become more understood as their use expands, and manufacturers are working on ways to mitigate the severity of an EV fire when it happens.

Yes - EV fires are dramatic and can be much more extreme in nature. And it is understandable why use of EVs in confined spaces is being restricted for this very reason. But that doesn't mean they are more likely to happen, or that an EV fire can happen 'by itself'.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think there are two parts to this, and they are regularly conflated in a way that gives a false impression.


To the second part - are EV fires more difficult to handle? I think this is true. There are lots of examples where an EV fire has proven more difficult to handle than anticipated, and the effects of an EV fire tend to be more extreme.
.

I do recall reading of a Tesla which crashed in the US and the ensuing battery fire took over 4 hours to control.... not to mention 30,000 gallons of water. Normal ICE car fires are usually the work of minutes to control

(As an aside when the fire was put out it was realised no one was in the driving seat, with one deceased in the front passenger seat and one in the rear... that of course is another issue, one with 'self driving' software moreso than with EV's per se).

Found a link to the story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...verless-crash/

Also from that link and relevant to this discussion ....

The National Transportation Safety Board last year published an independent review of the risk of fires caused by the lithium-ion batteries used in electric vehicles. The board found that if a collision damages a battery, there is a risk of “uncontrolled increases in temperature and pressure, known as thermal runaway, which can lead to venting and combustion of toxic gases, cell rupture and release of projectiles, and battery re-ignition/fire.”

EDIT: Just found a link to the report on the review of "Safety Risks to Responders from Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in EV's"

https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-s...nts/SR2001.pdf

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Thanks for the two links guys and having read both articles I am now even less sure about the fire safety of EV's. I'm sure that possibly both could be sited as propaganda aimed towards a particular cause, but agree that using vehicle data from 2015 and 'miles travelled compared to fires' does allow the 'statistics' to be weighted in EV's favour. In regard to the extinguishing of EV fires, I have been told that our local fire service now have a vehicle that carries a huge container full of (or that can be filled with) water which they put recently extinguished EV's into to prevent reignition. One further thought that this has brought to mind (and I'm certainly no chemist) is what additional problems this will create with regard to pollution (of the water) and the safe disposal of the burned out remains.
I wonder what the next great solution to the supposed problem will be?

Although there has been a large increase in vehicle battery fires , a lot of people and the media seem reluctant to admit it .https://beforeitsnews.com/eu/2022/11...s-2697522.html
A lot of the fires have been caused by charging or collisions , but there have been some that the cause has not been explained , possibly because there is a push for more electric vehicles and they do not want people frightened.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Although there has been a large increase in vehicle battery fires , a lot of people and the media seem reluctant to admit it .https://beforeitsnews.com/eu/2022/11...s-2697522.html

Where is the evidence that the media is reluctant to admit an increase in vehicle battery fires? As the number of EVs on the roads increases, the number of vehicle battery fires will rise proportionally - nobody is denying that.

It's pretty humorous to read the rhetoric in the linked article:
'Dramatic Recent Increase in U.K. Electric Vehicle Battery Explosions And Fires'
'Startling new evidence'

and yet paragraph two says 'Electric vehicle (EV) sales have risen of late'

More EVs = more fires. If someone finds that dramatic and startling, then they are quite naive.

[midgetman]

The way I look at it, we're in the foothills of a revolution in personal transport. I'd happily have an EV for my day to day commuting, around the village or into town or whatever, and there'd be no range anxiety. But for the trip to the track I'll choose a diesel van over an EV any day.

It will change. Look at mobile phones of even 20 years ago, in performance terms totally different to the ones we have today. Poor battery life, p-poor call quality and forget using them to find your way or as an internet tool. Why does everyone assume that EV technology won't change between now and universal adoption?

The same goes for power generation. I believe governments are hampered by the views of those they're trying to court to get themselves re-elected - witness the pandering to the anti-nuclear lobby of the 70s and 80s. A new era beckons, but we need to believe it's just starting and we're not at the end game yet.

We need to change, because the status quo has worked so well hasn't it? Pollution, energy inflation, threatened blackouts, held in thrall to hostile nations. Great choice boys!

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by E.B

Just found a link to the report on the review of "Safety Risks to Responders from Lithium-Ion Battery Fires in EV's"

Is this kind of battery banned from racing cars? I keep my "normal", bike and cars, unit till the instances change their mind, because its the law and because they know more and better than I.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Is this kind of battery banned from racing cars? I keep my "normal", bike and cars, unit till the instances change their mind, because its the law and because they know more and better than I.

Well presumably the hybrid powered cars all do

Im no expert in the racing applications but I did find a bit of stuff online from those with an interest. Im sure others here can interpret and comment with more knowledge than I.


This link talks of supply for racing applications of "Super B Lithium Batteries" and indeed shows a picture of a Historic Touring car.....

https://www.super-b.com/en/lithium-p...%20race%20cars.

Also a youtube video talking of their use in drag racing: https://youtu.be/bIp12JJ7G-8

Even a blog article on racing batteries from our friends at Demon Tweeks which mentions Lithium batteries:
https://blog.demon-tweeks.com/motors...sport-battery/


I found this paper from 2019, which indicates research into the idea. Also highlights the risks of "Thermal Runaway".... Might have to download it to read it.

Lithium_Batteries_in_Racing_Presenters_Notes

[Gerard C]

Thanks for the links and the search! For a racing car I feel that a traditional battery meets all my requirements, they are not that heavy compared to a "gel" battery supposed to be dedicated to this type of use, not mentioning the hassle of the terminals. And the price is traditional too, a good charge and that's it!

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by E.B

Well presumably the hybrid powered cars all do

Im no expert in the racing applications but I did find a bit of stuff online from those with an interest. Im sure others here can interpret and comment with more knowledge than I.


This link talks of supply for racing applications of "Super B Lithium Batteries" and indeed shows a picture of a Historic Touring car.....

https://www.super-b.com/en/lithium-p...%20race%20cars.

Also a youtube video talking of their use in drag racing: https://youtu.be/bIp12JJ7G-8

Even a blog article on racing batteries from our friends at Demon Tweeks which mentions Lithium batteries:
https://blog.demon-tweeks.com/motors...sport-battery/


I found this paper from 2019, which indicates research into the idea. Also highlights the risks of "Thermal Runaway".... Might have to download it to read it.

Lithium_Batteries_in_Racing_Presenters_Notes

The " Thermal Runaway " explanation seems to be the reason that EVs catch fire all by themselves .
Chevrolet have recalled the battery packs on about 140,000 EVs because of faults , and VW has done about 21,000 vehicles .It has also been a problem with several other manufacturers .

[MGDavid]

Those of you concerned with the safety aspects of Lithium batteries could do worse than to research and read up on their use in the aviation industry.
There are very well documented examples and incidents involving spontaneous combustion leading to smoke in the cockpit.
The rules around their transport as goods by air are also worth a read - not allowed to carry in the hold of passenger aircraft under any circumstances.

[Gerard C]

I was about to buy one for my Honda bike, but gave up and went for a traditional Yuasa (Japan made) unit. Same for the cars, racing or not, and cant afford an Odyssey or the like.

[Gerard C]

No danger in a Nürbur taxi but dont even think about some busses in Paris:https://insideevs.com/news/583324/pa...ter-two-fires/ Official explanation is that the battery itself is safe but "only" a small component is the cause of the whole mess. Go figure!

[GORDON STREETER]

Not only cars !
The number of fires caused by electric bikes and scooters has been rising, and cheap replacement rechargeable batteries and non-brand chargers have been blamed for the majority, according to the London Fire Brigade. Such replacements often fail to meet rigorous British health and safety standards.

Fire services recommend that ideally all e-bikes, e-scooters and bikes with electric charge attachments should be stored in a safe place outdoors, such as inside a locked garage or shed.

If your electric two-wheelers are kept indoors, a smoke detector needs to be installed nearby and they should not block any entranceways or exits.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Such replacements often fail to meet rigorous British health and safety standards.

Or possibly any standards at all, depending on the source.

One of the problems with Teslas early in their production was the risk of any sort of battery damage caused by running over debris on the road. Or, maybe for the extremely foolish, off-road.

There were a number of fires, some occurring when parked in a garage or a covered area where a charger had been installed, that resulted in a car conflagration setting the entire house alight.

That may be more of a problem in the States where larger houses in the Suburbs tend to have large garages that are actually used as garages due to the extremes of temperature experienced and the size of hail stones on a bad day.

[GORDON STREETER]

Something interesting being built in the workshop next door

[justracing]

McLaren?