[Driver] Webber VS Vettel

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

The people taking this thread seriously!

*facepalm*

It's just a bit of fun.Because let's face it,F1 doesn't actually possess 'any' of the 'best drivers'.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by mac

Regardless of Webber's accident and the reasons for it - this is complete garbage...

If the car bottoms out and the wheels are no longer touching the ground I would suggest it is going to be pretty difficult for anyone other than the man upstairs to not lose control...

He's not blaming the team - merely saying what happened. If there is a driver in F1 that will put his hand up and admit to a mistake, it is Webber - he is the least full of **** of all the drivers.

So what's the observation lap for when you know the car setup has been changed, particularly the ride height? Case in point, you don't go hard on cold tyres do you, you wait until they've warmed up before doing a flyer? Once the tyres have warmed up, the tyre pressures increase and the car's attitude changes. You drive the car based on 'feel', and not memory.

Adjusting ride heights is nothing new. Altering wings is nothing new. Riding kerbs is nothing new. It's all par for the course for every driver in F1. Crashing is nothing new either... for some more than others. My point is, how many other drivers at Suzuka also had issues with their car bottoming out?

How much of Webber's 'poor luck' was self inflicted? What would you have done differently to Webber?

[mac]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

So what's the observation lap for when you know the car setup has been changed, particularly the ride height?

You're right.

His car probably bottomed out the lap before and by some miracle he didn't up in the boonies, therefore he foolishly thought there would be no drama and carried on.

He should have felt something in the car at Le Mans in 1999 too and known to come in to get the aero redesigned before the thing went into orbit on the next lap...

You have no basis to question his explanation. If he says the thing bottomed out because the thing was riding too lowly, what makes you more credentialled than the bloke sitting in the car to pass judgement?

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by mac

You're right.

His car probably bottomed out the lap before and by some miracle he didn't up in the boonies, therefore he foolishly thought there would be no drama and carried on.

He should have felt something in the car at Le Mans in 1999 too and known to come in to get the aero redesigned before the thing went into orbit on the next lap...

You have no basis to question his explanation. If he says the thing bottomed out because the thing was riding too lowly, what makes you more credentialled than the bloke sitting in the car to pass judgement?

I took it that he got the previous corner wrong and he didn't have the right line for the next corner where the car bottomed out on the kerb... which is where he lost it? Pure driver error. The car didn't crash because of a fault with the car. The car crashed because Webber made a driving error. It's not like there was oil on the circuit, which caused other cars to crash at the same point...

[JeremySmith]

God give me strength.....

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I think it goes back to his early career when his team mates were nowhere near him in terms of talent, but unfortunately for him, (some of) his fan's pointed at this at how good Mark is, dispite his team mates being not upto the job.

For example, F3000 champion and number 1 driver for the famous Newman-Haas team (following the likes of Mansell) hardly indicates a rubbish team mate surely?

[EBXR8]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I took it that he got the previous corner wrong and he didn't have the right line for the next corner where the car bottomed out on the kerb... which is where he lost it? Pure driver error. The car didn't crash because of a fault with the car. The car crashed because Webber made a driving error. It's not like there was oil on the circuit, which caused other cars to crash at the same point...

All This Proves Is The The Man Is Human!

Bloody Hell Lewis Bins it into the wall on the last lap of The Italian GP and no one verbally bashed him this bad.

PPL its time to face facts, Vettel is the future, no doubting that, webber still has what it takes to be competitive for now.

Red Bull have too bloody good and capeable drivers on their hands and will be right up there next season, i fully forsee them to go one better in the constructors and both SV and MW in the hunt.

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

Terrible race for Webber. I mean how did he even think that a 5 stop strategy would work. The guy must work on his race craft and planning, but then this is nothing new.

An all-new gameplan from the Webber camp...

"You're doing two pitstops? WE'RE doing five pitstops!"

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by EBXR8

All This Proves Is The The Man Is Human!

Bloody Hell Lewis Bins it into the wall on the last lap of The Italian GP and no one verbally bashed him this bad.

I'm no fan of Lewis at all. I'm just commenting on the thread title that is "Webber vs Vettel".

I wanted Webber to succeed when he entered the sport. But I'm growing tired of all the excuses for his lack of success, poor run of luck, and generally high incident rate.

If you go back to Webber's maiden win, it was due in no small part to Massa slowing the field by 2-3s/lap? Hardly an impressive win but Webber had luck on his side that day, for a change. Without that luck, Webber would still be searching for that elusive win.

It's just the way I see things, that's all.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

God give me strength.....

Originally Posted by EBXR8

All This Proves Is The The Man Is Human!

Bloody Hell Lewis Bins it into the wall on the last lap of The Italian GP and no one verbally bashed him this bad.

PPL its time to face facts, Vettel is the future, no doubting that, webber still has what it takes to be competitive for now.

Red Bull have too bloody good and capeable drivers on their hands and will be right up there next season, i fully forsee them to go one better in the constructors and both SV and MW in the hunt.

Having trouble working out who gets first prize out of those two posts, so to both.

You know all is well with the world when you can visit this thread every couple of months and find the content unchanged.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

It's just the way I see things, that's all.

I don't think that 'good luck' was involved with Webber's win in any way.He had the 'bad luck' to get a drive-through,which he recovered from well.It was a very dominant win.

Since then,however,he had a single podium at the following race,and then nothing.It's a bad run,which drivers do have from time to time.My only concern for him is that in the last two races he has made errors in practice that will no doubt have affected his pace during qualifying and the race.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I don't think that 'good luck' was involved with Webber's win in any way.He had the 'bad luck' to get a drive-through,which he recovered from well.It was a very dominant win.

Since then,however,he had a single podium at the following race,and then nothing.It's a bad run,which drivers do have from time to time.My only concern for him is that in the last two races he has made errors in practice that will no doubt have affected his pace during qualifying and the race.

The penalty was definitely there after Webber's overly aggressive move nearly took out Barrichello. The field was definitely held back and Webber basically cruised to victory.

There is always something amiss with Webber's performances.

Let's agree to disagree then.

[Mr V]

If Mark didn't deserve that victory then no one else would have. He overcame a penalty and dominated the race, pure and simple.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Mr V

If Mark didn't deserve that victory then no one else would have. He overcame a penalty and dominated the race, pure and simple.

No, please don't misquote me.

Webber absolutely deserved that victory. He didn't do much wrong apart from the actual incident that resulted in the penalty. Webber did dominate.

My (hypothetical) analysis was that he would have been under pressure if the field somehow had found a way past Massa.

Yeah, I know, ifs buts maybes... but that's why we have a forum!

[nobster]

Mark did very much deserve that victory, he was on a different planet that day, but over the course of the season the results have spoken for Vettel, i think he is the only driver at Red Bull that really is a big star, Webber is good but not championship material.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by nobster

Mark did very much deserve that victory, he was on a different planet that day, but over the course of the season the results have spoken for Vettel, i think he is the only driver at Red Bull that really is a big star, Webber is good but not championship material.

He could be championship material if he had a dominant car and his team-mate wasn't handing his backside to him on a plate week-in, week-out.

[M30TGV]

Mark did very well to win that race. I'm no Webber fan - I don't rate him as highly as some think he should be, but in that race, it was his moment - no doubt.

I think the clock is ticking for him though - there are too many good younger drivers and some very strong match-ups next year (esp if Kimi ends up based at Woking), that I think this may have been Webber's big chance gone - and it's not necessarily all his fault, but that's life.

[deeks6]

As far as the original thread goes .... I think we can call this one.

Unfortunately for the team, the team and both drivers have got it wrong on too many occaisions and burnt a golden opportunity this year IMO. Vettel looks untouchable on his day and I think he'll have many more in the future - he's dominated MW in qualifying and that was a strength of Webber. Webber had him worried mid-season and looked as though he might go on with it but a couple of team errors and his errors have consigned the last few races to the rubbish bin. I think he'll hit back, probably even win another race if the cars good next year but SV has his measure now I'd say.

[OZ_HCR32]

This thread is still seeing some heated debate! Webber was solid as they come for the first half season. From Hungary onwards it seems to be his turn to experience some of the dramas that affected Vettel mid season.

Vettel has taken the points lead and Mark wont receover as he will do the right thing and try to tail gate and take points off the Brawns...not to say thats not what he has been trying to do, rather he is now only racing two white cars where earlier he was racing 3 cars.

I posted early in this debate that its not right to look at simply the points... Vettel is getting the job done more often and both drivers have had their share of heart ache this season. The mongrel that Webber had when first at Williams is back this year and this is a MUST if he is to remain competitive and side by side with Vettel in 2010. He needs to finish 2009 strong though.

So looking back on the past few races...Spa, Webber paid a high price with the Heidfeld clash. Based on the pace of the car, and the great first few laps, he was assured of a 3rd, perhaps (?) better. Then roll on Singapore, an overly aggressive outside move on Alonso, which tanked and brake failure meant it was all for 0 anyway. Then Japan...well, you just cant afford 3 results like that at the end of the year when you are in the hunt...especially when there were strong points to be taken from these races (>4)

Circumstance has played a part in killing his 2009 campaign, as mush as his Japanese GP crash and his inability to take the last point in Spain, instead finishing 9th to Buttons 8th...if Vettel faulters in the last two GPs he needs to be there to take the win or bluntly hand Vettel a position in final pit stops etc.

I have seen what i needed to from Webber this year, he lifted and the only criticism i think i can level at him is he has been a bit too clever with fuel loads, trying to fuel so that he can jump the KERS cars in the stops knowing he has to go longer and qualifying a position ahead of them does little when they jump you into the first corner. Vettel has been out qualifying Webber and shown, if you back yourself on the first lap then you are at least a chance rather then being back in the pack and rolling the dice.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I wish Webber was man enough to just admit it was driver error instead of offering a technical 'out' and suggesting that his team was at least partially responsible for his spin.
.

He cops to his mistakes more then most drivers ... have you forgotten the old favourite "run out of talent" quote he used in Singapore? He has had two accidents in the last two race weekends. I think he is just pushing too hard with the limited running they have with regards to engines....and yes, as per his own words running out of talent. So i dont think its fair to labour Mark with that criticism...his sins are not overly different to the Hamiltonesque throwing it at barriers on the last lap (putting it all into context, Hamo/WDC bins in within corners of a podium....and in Japan, there were plenty going off, Glock, Heiki, STRs...so he got it wrong, but again... perspective)

Originally Posted by SSbaby

That attempted pass on Alonso at Singapore where he overtook on the illegal part of the track is an indication to me that he sometimes doesn't have his brain engaged... a bit like white line fever.
.

What like Kimi off the line in Spa, where he just went off the track onto the shoulder and KERS'ed his way up to the bumper of Fisi!!!???? Or in Spain when Button did the same thing and cut a kerb to keep Webber behind, only to have to hand the position back as he gained an advantage. Its racing wheel to wheel and sometimes in the heavy traffic of openign laps you try to seize an advantage and it sometimes comes off, other times it doesnt.

If you look at it all in isolation its easy to start levelling unfair criticism..IMO.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

He cops to his mistakes more then most drivers ... have you forgotten the old favourite "run out of talent" quote he used in Singapore? He has had two accidents in the last two race weekends. I think he is just pushing too hard with the limited running they have with regards to engines....and yes, as per his own words running out of talent. So i dont think its fair to labour Mark with that criticism...his sins are not overly different to the Hamiltonesque throwing it at barriers on the last lap (putting it all into context, Hamo/WDC bins in within corners of a podium....and in Japan, there were plenty going off, Glock, Heiki, STRs...so he got it wrong, but again... perspective)




What like Kimi off the line in Spa, where he just went off the track onto the shoulder and KERS'ed his way up to the bumper of Fisi!!!???? Or in Spain when Button did the same thing and cut a kerb to keep Webber behind, only to have to hand the position back as he gained an advantage. Its racing wheel to wheel and sometimes in the heavy traffic of openign laps you try to seize an advantage and it sometimes comes off, other times it doesnt.

If you look at it all in isolation its easy to start levelling unfair criticism..IMO.

That's a fair call. I had no idea he said that about himself. In fact, I'm unaware of any of the incidents you describe, but accept and take your comments on board.

I tend to take more notice of Webber and Team Red Bull because I was a supporter of Webber for so long. It's not until that Vettel joined the team that I began to see Webber in a slightly less glowing light. It's been frustrating to watch Webber place himself in a great qualifying position... only to see him blow it at various stages.

[speedreader]

Originally Posted by SSbaby
That attempted pass on Alonso at Singapore where he overtook on the illegal part of the track is an indication to me that he sometimes doesn't have his brain engaged... a bit like white line fever.
.

Cant exactly agree with you here - to me it showed committment & bravery.

I also believe Alonso played a big part in where they BOTH ended up & that it was unfair only Webber was penalised. Take another look at the footage and IMHO Webber did a good job of avoiding Alonso who was deliberately forcing him wide at corner entry / mid corner but in doing so, actually outbraked & outcornered himself & also ran over the offending kerb/line.

I accept Webber was the overtaking driver but had he not yielded track position it would more than likely have resulted in them both being involved in an accident with Alonso being the main offender by forcing both cars off line...

[Wims]

I dont agree with that, its just solid racecraft to hang an overtaker out to dry on the outside line. I dont think Webber choked either, it was just racing.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Wim Sjøholm

I dont agree with that, its just solid racecraft to hang an overtaker out to dry on the outside line.

It might have been had Alonso also remained on the racetrack...

[EBXR8]

Good To See Mark Secure another win, a strong qualy and a good result, shows that he is not a one trick pony, i think next year will be much the same again with both mark and seb pushing and feeding off each other.