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Old 14 Jan 2024, 20:22 (Ref:4191895)   #601
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TWRv12 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTWRv12 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Need to sort all the parity stuff before the season starts
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Old 14 Jan 2024, 21:56 (Ref:4191905)   #602
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Lift the RPM limit and give the Fords a different diff ratio, job done. If they can't get this right forget any other manufacturer entering the series because SC would not be able to manage all the issues a new entry would present.
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Old 14 Jan 2024, 23:07 (Ref:4191917)   #603
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Originally Posted by bluesport View Post
Well isn't a good idea to do the testing after the engine changes?
They had 2 years to effect engine changes!!
The cars are in the US chewing up time, people and money and the Ford mob are STILL buggering around with base spec

Chev, 888 & KRE did a great job of homologating their powerplant

Ford and whoever keeps getting in the way over there, has not. At any stage.

At what point does the series call game over, no more changes?
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 00:34 (Ref:4191923)   #604
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
They had 2 years to effect engine changes!!
The cars are in the US chewing up time, people and money and the Ford mob are STILL buggering around with base spec

Chev, 888 & KRE did a great job of homologating their powerplant

Ford and whoever keeps getting in the way over there, has not. At any stage.

At what point does the series call game over, no more changes?
I guess that it's not easy dumbing the coyote down to that of a pushrod donk, if it was allowed to rev as it was designed to do then there probably wouldn't be any problems, the engine itself has been very reliable.
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 00:46 (Ref:4191924)   #605
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
They had 2 years to effect engine changes!!
The cars are in the US chewing up time, people and money and the Ford mob are STILL buggering around with base spec

Chev, 888 & KRE did a great job of homologating their powerplant

Ford and whoever keeps getting in the way over there, has not. At any stage.

At what point does the series call game over, no more changes?
You seem to have a problem accepting that the two motors are totally & fundamentally different and that means there can be no parity in the true sense of the word. Go and do some research on the differences between a push rod two valve motor and an OHC four valve and try and understand the differences. SC should do the same thing, you can only bash your head against the same wall so much before the penny drops but Skaife & Co seem to like pain.
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 01:11 (Ref:4191925)   #606
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I know they are different in design and architecture
To suggest otherwise is foolish.

Let us not conveniently forget this engine was in test mode for a whole season then ran the 2023 series.

This fact is as immutable as the differences in the engines.

Two years up the road and we are arguably still no closer to an answer.
While V8Supercar likely torched the cost of their unused booking at AVL.

Had this been done at the beginning, or indeed that Ford understood that their ‘out of the box’ engine would have issues against a very pragmatic, professional competitor, then this would not continue to be of discussion.

Maybe it’s like the ‘Ford vs Ferrari’ movie
That little red folder has 2532 people look at it before someone in charge cries enough

Cue Benny Hill music here….
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 04:14 (Ref:4191938)   #607
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
I know they are different in design and architecture
To suggest otherwise is foolish.

Let us not conveniently forget this engine was in test mode for a whole season then ran the 2023 series.

This fact is as immutable as the differences in the engines.

Two years up the road and we are arguably still no closer to an answer.
While V8Supercar likely torched the cost of their unused booking at AVL.

Had this been done at the beginning, or indeed that Ford understood that their ‘out of the box’ engine would have issues against a very pragmatic, professional competitor, then this would not continue to be of discussion.

Maybe it’s like the ‘Ford vs Ferrari’ movie
That little red folder has 2532 people look at it before someone in charge cries enough

Cue Benny Hill music here….
From my understanding everyone is onboard with what is happening so what is the issue, it's not as if you are paying for it yourself?
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 04:58 (Ref:4191940)   #608
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Is that why the media aims largely dead silent?
Are they gagged?
If not, how about a vox pop?

How many days to go to Bathurst, Round 1?

And if Ford doesn’t win, will they fiddle with all of this again?
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 06:56 (Ref:4191948)   #609
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Is that why the media aims largely dead silent?
Are they gagged?
If not, how about a vox pop?

How many days to go to Bathurst, Round 1?

And if Ford doesn’t win, will they fiddle with all of this again?
If chev don't win again will they fiddle for them?
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 07:09 (Ref:4191949)   #610
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White Wash?

Last edited by GTRMagic; 15 Jan 2024 at 09:18.
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 10:12 (Ref:4191960)   #611
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What do you mean by whitewash?
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 11:15 (Ref:4191965)   #612
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What do you mean by whitewash?
The most critical piece of information in the article is buried at the bottom of the text, and even then no big deal is made of it.

Some how torque sensor testing in a PremiAir is the feature of the story.

What am I missing here??
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 12:23 (Ref:4191969)   #613
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I know they are different in design and architecture
To suggest otherwise is foolish.
I don't think you have read anything about why the design and architecture means that exact parity can't be done and like a lot of people out there think that because they both have 8 cylinders exact parity is easy to achieve. The present rules are from when both makes had push rod 2 valve motors of the same capacity and that was easy to sort out so how about the rules are changed to suit the Ford and let the Chev have the problem of trying to match its performance. Give both motors a higher rev limit, maybe 8700 and let's see what happens then.

Personally I think allowing the situation to develop with two different motors is a lunatic idea, it was never going to work as it used to. Obviously the Nissan & Mercedes experience was simply brushed aside as irrelevant and a none event. Unfortunately none of what you have written convinces me that you understand the basic problem.
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 12:43 (Ref:4191972)   #614
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I don't think you have read anything about why the design and architecture means that exact parity can't be done and like a lot of people out there think that because they both have 8 cylinders exact parity is easy to achieve. The present rules are from when both makes had push rod 2 valve motors of the same capacity and that was easy to sort out so how about the rules are changed to suit the Ford and let the Chev have the problem of trying to match its performance. Give both motors a higher rev limit, maybe 8700 and let's see what happens then.

Personally I think allowing the situation to develop with two different motors is a lunatic idea, it was never going to work as it used to. Obviously the Nissan & Mercedes experience was simply brushed aside as irrelevant and a none event. Unfortunately none of what you have written convinces me that you understand the basic problem.
So when does Ford admit defeat, and drop in an alternative engine?
One that is the same spec ohv design..

Where is that blasted red folder..

Won’t the MARC guys and girls be interested they could have had a Chev engine instead of a Ford one and gone faster

And you might be surprised at what I get to read..
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 20:14 (Ref:4192019)   #615
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So when does Ford admit defeat, and drop in an alternative engine?
One that is the same spec ohv design..

Where is that blasted red folder..

Won’t the MARC guys and girls be interested they could have had a Chev engine instead of a Ford one and gone faster

And you might be surprised at what I get to read..
In the B6hr the 5 litre coyote engine is faster than the 6.2 litre chev donk.
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Old 15 Jan 2024, 23:25 (Ref:4192036)   #616
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Ford are just brilliant again, stuffed up their aero by changing to new body shape very late in the piece.

Ignored good advice about size of the throttle body now trying to change other parts to suit the smaller throttle body WHILE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DYNO TESTING

Meanwhile they will have issues during the season and blame Supercars, just like last year.

Comical.
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Old 16 Jan 2024, 00:17 (Ref:4192040)   #617
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Are both the Ford and Chev engine run on the same dyno?

I am just curious as if they are calibrated on different dyno the results will be different. It is common knowlege that no 2 dyno's are the same.
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Old 16 Jan 2024, 00:50 (Ref:4192043)   #618
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Are both the Ford and Chev engine run on the same dyno?

I am just curious as if they are calibrated on different dyno the results will be different. It is common knowlege that no 2 dyno's are the same.
Both are run on Mr Hasted’s Cragsted dyno…

Presuming ambient temps, air flows, humidity etc etc are constant/controlled to allow the comparison to occur.
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Old 16 Jan 2024, 01:04 (Ref:4192046)   #619
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Every manufavturer in the world uses 4 valve o/head cam engines these days, why the chev homologation team weren't told to use the LT6 engine is mind boggling.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lt6/
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Old 16 Jan 2024, 01:28 (Ref:4192047)   #620
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Every manufavturer in the world uses 4 valve o/head cam engines these days, why the chev homologation team weren't told to use the LT6 engine is mind boggling.
Because competent teams with years of preparation and the appropriate experience don't need to be told.

Story remains that we wouldn't be in this situation if not for the health decline of Steve Amos, but I'm not sure the engine shop changing hands again this year helps matters.

Simple fact is DJR have taken this over because Herrods have zero experience with race engines, unlike KRE.

And it shows.
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Old 16 Jan 2024, 03:31 (Ref:4192052)   #621
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Because competent teams with years of preparation and the appropriate experience don't need to be told.

Story remains that we wouldn't be in this situation if not for the health decline of Steve Amos, but I'm not sure the engine shop changing hands again this year helps matters.

Simple fact is DJR have taken this over because Herrods have zero experience with race engines, unlike KRE.

And it shows.
Supercars made it sound like it was a simple issue to paritise the engines but that's not the case, the LT6 engine for the chev would have been the best way to proceed.
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Old 16 Jan 2024, 03:47 (Ref:4192053)   #622
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KRE used to build some pretty special Ford engines in the day..

Wonder if they couldn’t specify & build both brands’ powerplants?
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Old 16 Jan 2024, 03:52 (Ref:4192054)   #623
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KRE used to build some pretty special Ford engines in the day..

Wonder if they couldn’t specify & build both brands’ powerplants?
It's got nothing to do with who is building the engines, just wait and see what they come up with.
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Old 17 Jan 2024, 23:30 (Ref:4192237)   #624
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Because competent teams with years of preparation and the appropriate experience don't need to be told.

Story remains that we wouldn't be in this situation if not for the health decline of Steve Amos, but I'm not sure the engine shop changing hands again this year helps matters.

Simple fact is DJR have taken this over because Herrods have zero experience with race engines, unlike KRE.

And it shows.

In your opinion, how would a different builder change both the power and torque curve of the Ford as every four valve motor has these characteristics are part of the reason four valves/OHC are used. As far as I know it is impossible to change but maybe you can show the engine designers of this world how it can be done but I won't hold my breath waiting.
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Old 18 Jan 2024, 01:08 (Ref:4192241)   #625
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In your opinion, how would a different builder change both the power and torque curve of the Ford as every four valve motor has these characteristics are part of the reason four valves/OHC are used. As far as I know it is impossible to change but maybe you can show the engine designers of this world how it can be done but I won't hold my breath waiting.
I see that the problem is trying to achieve technical parity, the cars were close in lap times at the end of 2023 and all that was needed for 2024 was adjustments to air restrictors and shift cuts, but supercars continue to chase expensive and difficult to achieve solutions rather than simple solutions.
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