V8 impact? / 2.5l V8s (merged)

[Robin Plummer]

As from next year F1 will change from it's current 3.0 V10 engine format to a smaller 2.4 V8. I happen to think that Cosworth will be a leader in this formula from day one and produce a great engine because they have over 30 years F1 experience in V8 engine design, something Toyota, Ferrari, Renault, etc do not.

What power output will these new engines put out? Will they be reduced by a big amount?.

To work out what I think the inital engines will put out I will use two near examples.

The 1996 Mercedes ITC C-Classs 2.5 V6 520bhp @11,650rpm This is production block based engine.

The 1997 Ford Cosworth ED5 3.0 V8 665bhp @14,500rpm The last V8 F1 engine.

Now it is over 8 years since these engines were used and technology has moved on,and in recent times 3.0 V10's have reved to 19,250rpm.

What restrictions are going to be placed on the 2006 engine i.e. valve train, rev limits?

I would reckon a;
Option 1 : 2.4 V8 with a rev limit of 13,000rpm in 2006 will produce 600bhp
Option 2 : 2.5 V8 with a rev limit of 19,000rpm in 2006 will produce 750bhp

If they go with Option 1 then the cars will be no faster then GP2!

What's your view?

[Schummy]

I'm not an engine specialist at all, so my opinion is not based in deep particular knowledge

Power in engines of similar size is rougly proportional to their sizes. So 2.5 engines will have about 1/6 less power than current 3.0 given the approx same level of tech involved. Probably the same difference about torque.

Number of cilinders plays a factor, but 10 in 3.0 and 8 in 2.5 have a very similar cilinder size, so I don't think this is a very important factor.

If there is a rev limit, a similar ballpark estimation can be done: for similar rev limits, power output is more or less proportional to those limits. So if they use a rev limit that is 10% less than current usual max rev, then engines will have a further 10% less power (added to loss of power by less capacity). For severe reduction in rev limit this rule is not so accurate, though.

So I guess the new engine will be around 125-150 bhp lower than current engines. Probably max speed will not suffer a lot, but cars will have less downforce because there is not enough power to "waste" in aero drag. Acceleration will be probably the most "damaged" thing in terms of perfomance. Braking perhaps abit less efficient, because of less downforce. But all this will be more relationed to tyre regulations, of course.

Again, I'm not an expert, just an uninformed F1 fan!

[Glen]

There was talk also of knocking the weight limit down by 50kg, so the performance might be different there. This year has shown us what miracles can be worked with aerodynamics - we have downforce approaching 2004 levels already - so don't expect too much difference in corner speeds, despite the likely reduction in wing level in order to claw back some straight line speed.

I have read estimates of about 820bhp, with revs to 20000 or more - torque and drivability will probably be the first casualties, but total power is probably only going to be about 10% or so less. As far as I know there is no proposal for a rev limit.

[Rennen]

Thread title caught my eye...2.5!!!

2.4 ...and they sound dreadful!...Oh for the wail of a good V12, or scream of the V10 ...proper F1 engines!...V8 boring...can hear those on ANY race track!

[Marbot]

The big,low revving V8s sound great,but they seem to lose something at high rpms.

[alfasud]

Originally Posted by Robin Plummer

The 1996 Mercedes ITC C-Classs 2.5 V6 520bhp @11,650rpm This is production block based engine.

My understanding is that Mercedes lobbied the rule makers to be allowed to cut 2 cylinders off a V8 to make a V6... they didn't have a production V6 at that stage. They used a Merc V8 engine as a template and then cut two cylinders off the design to make a *new* V6 engine block. Then they used racing (rather than V8 production) internals in that engine for DTM racing. By the end of the 2.5L DTM era, there was nothing production based about their engines. Same with the Alfa Romeo and Opel V6 engine designs.

My predictions.... 3.0L V10 can produce over 900bhp, or 90bhp from each of it's 300cc sized cylinders. A 2.4L V8 also has 300cc per cylinder and should therefore produce at least 720bhp.

However if they are able to exploit the ability of the shorter crankshaft to allow more revs, then I'd expect 750-800bhp from a 2.4L V8 within a few years (if not sooner). This assumes that other rules like making the engine last for more races don't negate the advantages.

[fast95pony]

Would a V8 be better balanced and therefore be able to rev higher ??

[Raglanparade]

would it chew less fuel ? thus making one stop strategies more of a possibility ?

[Mike_Wooshy]

hmm wasnt cosworth already quoted on power and revs for thier V8 ?????
something around 800 Bhp (dont quote that bit not tooo sure)
and i deffo remember the 20,000 RPM its got.

[Alex Hodgkinson]

hmmm, I don't agree with some of the posts in this thread.

The V8 engines aren't going to be low revving, are they? Remember, all the technology is the same, so next years engines will be this year's engines with two cylinders taken off.

From experiance, if you drop capacity by dropping cylinders the engines sound pretty similar, but become a little more revvy because there's less mass of metal flying up and down.

Some of you seem to have the impression that we're going to go from the high pitched wail of recent years to engines which sound like they belong in an Austrailian supercar series.

The best comparison I can give you are the turbo engines. 4 cylinder (1.5L) BMW turbo unit against a normally aspirated (3.5L) V8. Didn't really sound much different, bar the coughing banging and spluttering of the Turbo.

[429CJ]

Originally Posted by Alex Hodgkinson

The best comparison I can give you are the turbo engines. 4 cylinder (1.5L) BMW turbo unit against a normally aspirated (3.5L) V8. Didn't really sound much different, bar the coughing banging and spluttering of the Turbo.

That's because Europeans can't make a proper V8 engine.

sorry.

[Marbot]

Max explains the reasons for the V8 engines and some more stuff here in Fridays press conference.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Mike_Wooshy

hmm wasnt cosworth already quoted on power and revs for thier V8 ?????
something around 800 Bhp (dont quote that bit not tooo sure)
and i deffo remember the 20,000 RPM its got.

Interestingly Minardi was mentioned as having signed a 2006 and beyond deal with Cosworth... for a modified version of the TJ2005 V10.....

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Interestingly Minardi was mentioned as having signed a 2006 and beyond deal with Cosworth... for a modified version of the TJ2005 V10.....

It will be a rev limited v10,read the above link for more info on V8 engines.