IRL to cut speeds

[rustyfan]

Haven't seen this mentioned here already, so here goes - from CBS Sportsline;

IRL wants to slow down cars, cut down on horrific crashes
Dec. 12, 2003
SportsLine.com wire reports

INDIANAPOLIS -- The Indy Racing League will cut engine horsepower to reduce speeds next season, a move spurred by the death of driver Tony Renna and serious injuries to former Indy 500 winner Kenny Brack in separate crashes two months ago.

Brack broke his back, a thigh, his breastbone and both ankles when his car made contact with another, spun into the air and crashed during the season-ending race at Texas Motor Speedway. Ten days later, Renna was killed in a similar crash when his car went airborne at close to 220 mph during private tests at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

Starting with the Indianapolis 500 next May, the IRL engines will be reduced from 3.5 liters displacement to 3.0 liters, cutting horsepower about 10 percent and reducing speeds by about 10 mph, IRL vice president John Griffin said Friday.

There was "little doubt" the change would have occurred even without the Brack and Renna crashes, he said.

"Those incidents facilitated it among the manufacturers in working with us and realizing we were going to have to make some changes for next year," Griffin said.

A report on the IRL's investigation of Renna's crash is "near completion," he said.

Helio Castroneves' pole-winning speed of 231.725 mph at Indianapolis this year was the fastest since Arie Luyendyk's record 236.986 qualification in 1996, before the IRL went from turbocharged to normally aspirated engines. This year was the first with the latest chassis-engine package.

"Obviously, the manufacturers and the people that work for the teams certainly got up to speed very quickly with the new package this year," Griffin said. "Historically, they find ways to increase speeds in years two and three of these types of packages, so Brian (Barnhart) wanted to find a way to reduce speeds going into 2004."

Barnhart, the IRL operations chief, has been concerned about the escalating speeds, particularly at Indianapolis, Griffin said.

"From Brian's standpoint, this was year one of a new engine package. They came out of the box at pretty significant speeds. ... It was a goal of Brian's to find some ways to reduce speeds in anticipation of returning to Indianapolis in 2004."

[Hazza]

About time.

[dangeradam]

have heard irl refered to as Rollerball by some people.

I was wondering how many more big crashes before they took some action.

[Mackmot]

Idiots, they dont need to decrease power they need to increase it and put rules on the wing angles. They are dangerous because they are not powerful enough, that means that to be the fastest you have to run with no wing. And what happens when you run without wing, yes you take off.

[rustyfan]

The crashes by Mario Andretti, Dan Wheldon and Kenny Brack had nothing to do with the wing configuration, and I don't think Tony Renna's crash had something to do with it either.

The flat bottoms of the cars is one of the main reasons the car catches air in the first place (once the nose has been punted up far enough for air to get in underneath that is), just like the sports-car flips in recent years (Yannick Dalmas @ Road Atlanta, Peter Dumbreck and Mark Webber @ Le Mans and Michele Alboreto @ Lausitzring, to name a few).

[racefanatic]

I was thinking that the problem was too much downforce.:confused:

[Testure]

This was exactly what Hornish was calling for in that interview that Down F0rce posted during the week. I guess he must have had some inside information... I'm not sure, though. It seems to me that Mackmot has a good point. The tendancy is to run with such little wing and so close to the ground that the car setup is on a knife edge. It's a bit like the way F1 cars were when Senna died, no?

[gttouring]

i agree with mackmot- maybe more wing, or less tire so they run more wing the engine dropping to 3 litres? we know how that slows f1, sheesh. making tunnels under car would be a good idea- i don't like the flat bottoms- the whole car is a wing.
I think less tyre would be a good solution as less gripp in the turns would lead to lifting earlier, and slower accelerations and overall less speed, maybe a harder compound? but less power i am not sure that's exactly it.
but this in the name of safer races is a good thing- more likeley safer crashes.

[Kirk]

High speed ovals + cement walls + open wheel cars = recipe for disaster. What difference does 210 mph vs 230 mph when you are running into a solid cement wall?

Don't need comments like that, thank you.

[rustyfan]

The lower speed can make a lot of difference, not to mention they never hit the wall at those speeds - you'd be surprised if you knew how much speed is scrubbed off during, for example, a spin before the actual impact with the wall.

Speaking of the walls, with the SAFER barrier being installed at more and more tracks (Indianapolis, Richmond, Homestead and Phoenix - so far), the forces involved when striking the wall are reduced even further. It's been proven several times already - both in IndyCar and NASCAR competition - that the SAFER barrier reduces the G-spike a lot during impacts.

Quote removed

Thanks, I needed a good laugh

[GP Racer]

It's a good development. I don't think that the fans will notice a 10MPH difference, but if it saves life and limb, go for it.

[Ian-S]

10mph still wouldn't have stopped Kenny Brack going into the debris fence though, and if you believe it will then your kidding yourself (wasn't it Castroneves that did the same at Richmond at 190mph in a test?).

Lowering speeds is only half the problem, they need to address the aerodynamic issues the cars have that means the engineers have to set them up on a knife edge in the first place as well to make it work.

[Jordi]

I would also have thought that it would have been more sensible to make aerodynamic changes to the cars.
Questions from an uneducated guy in IRL and CART aerodynamics:

-Why do IRL cars take off and CART cars do not?
-Is it all a fluke?
-If you couldn't touch the engine, what should be done to fix the issue?

[Hazza]

Well one reason could be that Champ Cars only race on highspeed ovals 2 times a year, so there is less chance of a crash, and i think i remember Michael Andretti stating that last year the field was just so experianced for the most part that there was less of a chance for a crash. And finaly, the CART cars don't run nose to tail like the IRL cars so there again, is less of a chance of a crash.

As for the actual aero dynamics...dunno!

Um as from a very very very un-informed opinion removing the flat bottoms and sucking the cars to the ground could work maybe? (Wasn't that why the 956s et al didn't flip down Musslane straight ub the 80s?)

[Ian-S]

Originally posted by Hazza
Well one reason could be that Champ Cars only race on highspeed ovals 2 times a year, so there is less chance of a crash, and i think i remember Michael Andretti stating that last year the field was just so experianced for the most part that there was less of a chance for a crash. And finaly, the CART cars don't run nose to tail like the IRL cars so there again, is less of a chance of a crash.

As for the actual aero dynamics...dunno!

Um as from a very very very un-informed opinion removing the flat bottoms and sucking the cars to the ground could work maybe? (Wasn't that why the 956s et al didn't flip down Musslane straight ub the 80s?)

Pretty much what I was going to say

I think however, if they were going to try and address all issues together, then it will probably be better to throw the current crop of cars in the bin and start from scratch, cos by changing one thing, they'll probably find it'll introduce another issue (an example would be putting large F1 style flipups on the back of the sidepods to induce downforce to stop them flying could cause lift when the cars go backwards).

Wheel to wheel contact is a different thing however, I've seen Formula Ford's get high enough to clear 15 foot high debris fence so changing the cars to avoid that kind of a shunt is going to be an impossible job unless they put barge bars on the back of em...

[crozier74]

Originally posted by Testure
The tendancy is to run with such little wing and so close to the ground that the car setup is on a knife edge. It's a bit like the way F1 cars were when Senna died, no?

This goes pretty much in line with my thinking. Ultimately you can't really make single seater oval racing safe, but there is still a lot of space for improvement within the IRL. This HP cut is one step, but I don't think goes far enough, considering the seriousness of recent events. Not making any changes whatsoever to the aerodynamic package is absurd. Like Hornish has repeatedly said, one of the things they need to do is change the rules to force more downforce. The whole IRL racing wise appears to be like restrictor plate NASCAR at the moment, and that also needs to be looked at. It's not just a coincidence that both Brack and Renna's accident's involved the catch fencing, and IMO this also needs to be looked at. The SAFER barriers are a step in the right direction though.

IMO, if you were to compare the IRL's current era of safety to that of F1, taking into consideration the nature of ovals, I would say that they're round about 1994-'99ish.

[jhansen]

I have to disagree a little bit on the downforce issue. I also thought that they were perhaps running too little downforse and too close to the edge. But, look at how they are running on some of these tracks. Many of the tracks they are flat out the whole way around. Even on a few of the miles they can go flat out through the turns. Just read an article on the changes at PIR where they talk about being able to go flat out through turns 3 and 4. This has to be because of downforce. Don't fool yourself.

Now I admit that I'm no aero genius. I believe the IRL cars are ground effects cars (like CART). Correct me if I'm wrong please. But what about running no ground effects like the current F1 cars? And perhaps adopt a new aero package that forces the cars to lift some in the turns.

[gttouring]

why not cover the catchefence in polycarbonate? this way we can see through the fence, and it won't snag a car that was thrown into it- of course glare may be an issue, but the proper angle for the shields can avoid this, simple trig or some triagnulation with the suns angle and the drivers head in the cockpit and light reflection angle we can keep everyone happy and have a good barrier read to keep a car deflected.
Of course Brack and renna,s wrecks were so bad they want to fix- but the obvious Aero problem has been brushed under the carpet- remember mario testing at Indy as well? he hit debris and caught a bit of air-enough under the car to send it skyward, and into 4 flips and he walked away- was that not scary enough to redo the aero? leave the engines, hell use the Cosworth XFE, it doesn't matter but the aero bits are bad news. i can not see the current generation Champ cars (from i'd say 96 on up) ever doing what happened in the IRL- is it the aero? most likely and this is in reference to Oval only races. When greg moore passed, he didn't lift like kenny, i remeber him skidding through the grass and flipping up on that crazy infield concrete guillotine to chop the car in half- and montoya andretti fight at MIS, they touched wheels enough to rubb off the tyre names.
Which raises the point of all who crashed- and race in IRL.
Mario got his airborne at indy to no damage, but his skills aren't lacking, maybe not as sharp as they were but it was the car's aerodynamics lifting it after it bumped and ran over some of (ironically) Kenny Brack's debris in testing.
Kenny Brack is a great Oval Racer, and a pretty good driver period, his CART year was solid and air free, and he had some wrecks, He is an IRL series champ and Indy 500 winner- he can handle himself in an oval- again bad aero lifting the car after it gets enough air underneath-
Renna had tried the oval game before, but the experience of the 2 mentioned before clearly outweighs his to deal with any accident, and bad aero clearly sending a car up
so at what speeds does the car lift? 170 MPH 200MPH seriously 220MPH? The design of current IRL cars will toss up probably at lower speed than an Oval configured,more powerful and lighter champcar. The skill of the field in IRL is not what it should be- USAC guys flip up and go blinding fast (so do supermodifieds) but no serious wrecks like the IRL why? it isn't power to weight, because at 900 lbs or about 445kgs a sprint car has 800 or more horsepower, zooming at 170 or more Mph- the Silver crown still lighter than IRL car at 1200 lbs or 580kgs. have 800 or so HP and they do not encounter the IRL trouble on mile tracks or (this year proposed 2 milers)
The USAC guys spot trouble and deal with open wheels much better than guys who bump open wheel- like my favorite wrecking ball loos cannon Tomas Schekter- he has been involved in sooo many wrecks and is lucky he didn't kill anyone yet- it isn't a racing deal, it is a skill and open wheel oval experience thing. Speeds irrespective USAC guys (silvercrown especially) don't do this nose to tail and interlock wheels thing- when i race midgets or sprints the rule is always leave day light (or track) visible between the wheels. so IRL guys don't seem to care about this.
It has become a very talented pool- however the talent involved in some accidents show th flaws in the cars designs possibly, and the few involved in wrecks show the flaws in the accident participants more often than not.

[Ian-S]

Originally posted by gttouring
[B]why not cover the catchefence in polycarbonate? this way we can see through the fence, and it won't snag a car that was thrown into it- of course glare may be an issue, but the proper angle for the shields can avoid this, simple trig or some triagnulation with the suns angle and the drivers head in the cockpit and light reflection angle we can keep everyone happy and have a good barrier read to keep a car deflected.[B/]

And what happens when the polycarbonate shatters?

Originally posted by gttouring

Of course Brack and renna,s wrecks were so bad they want to fix- but the obvious Aero problem has been brushed under the carpet- remember mario testing at Indy as well? he hit debris.

Exactly, there was outside forces involved in that crash too, Kenny's sidepod to be precise.

Originally posted by gttouring

i can not see the current generation Champ cars (from i'd say 96 on up) ever doing what happened in the IRL- is it the aero? most likely and this is in reference to Oval only races. When greg moore passed, he didn't lift like kenny, i remeber him skidding through the grass and flipping up on that crazy infield concrete guillotine to chop the car in half

Actually Greg Moore's car was launch by the access road, which pitched the car into the wall upside down.

Originally posted by gttouring
Speeds irrespective USAC guys (silvercrown especially) don't do this nose to tail and interlock wheels thing- when i race midgets or sprints the rule is always leave day light (or track) visible between the wheels. so IRL guys don't seem to care about this.
It has become a very talented pool- however the talent involved in some accidents show th flaws in the cars designs possibly, and the few involved in wrecks show the flaws in the accident participants more often than not.

I'm sure you can count the number of times the IRL cars have touched wheels this year on one hand, they don't do it as often as the commentators or marketing departments make out, if they did, you'd have a Kenny Brack type crash each week.

You also can't compare a silver crown car to a IRL car, perhaps you might be able to soon when they get on the superspeedways, but not right now.

As it says on the back of the ticket, "Motor Racing is Dangerous and you are present at your own risk".

Did you know that, by stats, fishing is more dangerous than motor racing?

[gttouring]

"Did you know that, by stats, fishing is more dangerous than motor racing? "
so is changing a light bulb or shovelling your drive..

and Moore's car was launched atthe change of banking eh? he got loose but didn't fly is my point, that flying was caused by the bump...
mario's wreck- as i mentioned was debris related, but how loose do current indycars need to be or not be when air gets underneath them enough to cause flight?
Polycarbonate, would shatter your right, in large shards too. spectatotors would be skewered. (secretley i am laughing at the absurdity of this idea...) a series of poly walls could possibly work, or changing the indy car grandstanding. eliminating the bottom row altogethr- or computer generating the crowds and not really let a live spectator audience.

[macdaddy]

"computer generating the crowds"
Now that's funny.

I'm the farthest thing from an aerodynamic engineer that you can ever find, but the flat bottom has just GOT to act like an aircraft wing when lifted off the tarmac. Sort of like flying your hand out of the car window on the highway.

The reasons for the "flights", be it debris or wheel-to-wheel contact, are unavoidable in this game. But once the car has become airborne, something's gotta help to keep them from going to the moon.

[Snrub]

From a racing standpoint this is the WORST thing they could have done. IRL's biggest problem is that the racing isn't good due to the inability to utilize the driver's strengths. Drivers do not lift in corners. If the drivers don't lift then you're not challenging them and allowing those who are more skilled to shine through.

It's probably a good idea to slow the cars down, but do it as a whole. The grip needs to go down with the power, but more of a decrease in grip than in power and the racing will be better. As a percent of total grip run more mechanical grip and/or a more effective undertray (I thought IRL cars weren't flat on the bottom?).

The "CART never ran on that many ovals in a season" arguement doesn't cut it. A few seasons back CART ran about the same number of ovals as IRL is running now. Something is wrong with these cars. I think you could argue that accidents are more likely and will be of a different nature when running wheel to wheel as much as the IRL does.

A possible ramification of an engine spec change might be that it would annoy Honda and Toyota. They spent a lot of money developing their engines and that R&D money has to get ROI. Recall this was a big reason why Honda left CART for the IRL. As of today Honda could return to CART without investing more than a $1M in R&D (running the 2.65L V8 turbo).

[Tailwind]

On the polycarbonate idea, it has merit. Don’t assume that the engineers would simply design a system and put up single sheets of Lexan or Plexiglas (Those are most likely spelled wrong and need a “reg” or “TM” next to them.) They would certainly consider what would happen at impact involving applicable forces as well as effects. A more likely design would involve multiple layers of a modified composition sandwiched with layers of a thin flexible film similar in design to aircraft windows. The result would be very strong and resistant to breakage. The panels could be mounted on structural supports using shock mounts to absorb some of the impact forces.

The downsides are of course costs. This would be a much more expensive system than the typical chain link fencing. One other problem would be the deflection of the racing sounds. You wouldn’t feel the roaring of the engines in your chest.

[rustyfan]

Seems there is a slim chance the tires might be modified as well - the following is axed from an article at ESPN;

Al Speyer, executive motorsports director for Bridgestone/Firestone, says the IRL has asked his company to look at some things but hasn't discussed anything specific.

"You can reduce grip a number of ways," said Speyer. "Narrower tires, grooves on tires or harder compounds. We could also round out the shape of the tires, which puts less of the tread contacting the track.

"Narrow tires would pay a big price in the aero drag of the car. At Indy you'd be going a lot faster in a straight line but it would slow down the cornering speeds.

"Some of these tracks are a significant challenge to us and you have to be careful because if narrower tires start failing you haven't improved safety."

[jhansen]

To gttouring. Your info on the Silver Crown cars is a bit off. They are to weigh 1500 pounds without the driver. The motor is a 355ci V8 that produces 700-750hp. Source:

http://www.usacracing.com/sccarspecs.asp

Altering the tires for IRL would make some sense, lack of grip would definitely slow the corner speeds.