LM24 Qualifying Discussion (All Qually Posts Here, Please) - Page 17

GT-Eins · 13 Jun 2014, 12:04 (Ref:3419888)

First impressions from our Statistik-Department:
http://www.gt-eins.de/Berichte2014/2...al=Statistiken

Interesting to compare these figures with the Pretest:
http://www.gt-eins.at/cms/index.php?...=9340&Itemid=1

Porsche seems to have dropped the Topspeed-advantage for faster lap-times - successfully it seems.

And its no news that Audi was beaten below its possibilities

dbagtbag · 13 Jun 2014, 12:45 (Ref:3419898)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT-Eins

First impressions from our Statistik-Department:
http://www.gt-eins.de/Berichte2014/2...al=Statistiken

Interesting to compare these figures with the Pretest:
http://www.gt-eins.at/cms/index.php?...=9340&Itemid=1

Porsche seems to have dropped the Topspeed-advantage for faster lap-times - successfully it seems.

And its no news that Audi was beaten below its possibilities

Damn so Toyota has the top speed AND lap times when not going top speed too huh. They must really have gotten that car dialed in.

GT-Eins · 13 Jun 2014, 12:51 (Ref:3419902)

More on the GTE-Pro-Data:
http://www.gt-eins.de/Berichte2014/2...al=Statistiken

Max91 · 13 Jun 2014, 13:51 (Ref:3419917)

Greetings Guys

Long time reader and fan of this forum, but never participated.
The BOP for 991RSR-Manthey- They added more restrictions for Le Mans. There is way to much sandbagging going on. Competiveness is out the window.

http://www.crash.net/le-mans/news/20...-measures.html

Le Mans »
Le Mans 24 Hours: Porsche blasts GT balance measures

10 June 2014

"We feel it is a matter of utmost urgency to find a regulation where you don't have to fear being punished for a good performance..."

StumbleUpon

Le Mans 24 Hours: Porsche blasts GT balance measures

Head of Porsche Motorsport Harmut Kristen feels his team is being punished simply for its good performances after it was imposed with extra ballast in an effort to balance the competition ahead of the 2014 Le Mans 24 Hours.

After picking up a double win in the 2014 FIA World Endurance Championship opener at Silverstone, the factory supported Manthey-prepared 911 RSR was given 25kg extra ballast and the diameter of the two restrictors is 0.3mm smaller than last year.

Going on to be beaten by Ferrari last time out in Spa, Kristen doesn't understand the wisdom of the imposed weight penalty and questions whether the 'Balance of Performance is actually balanced'.

“Le Mans is the highlight of the year. For our teams and drivers this race represents an exceptional challenge – and we're feeling highly motivated and very well prepared. After our double victory at the season-opener in Silverstone, our car now has to carry 25 extra kilograms of ballast and the diameter of the two restrictors is now 0.3 millimetres smaller than last year's.

“When considering the additional changes made, as against 2013, at one or the other competitor one has to question to what extent is the Balance of Performance actually balanced.

“We feel it is a matter of utmost urgency in the spirit of the sport to find a regulation for the classification of vehicles where you don't have to fear being punished for a good performance, like what happened to us after Silverstone. Nevertheless, we'll work extremely hard to do a good job at Le Mans – just like last year.”

Winner of the LMGTE Pro and Am classes last season, Porsche will go up against Ferrari, Aston Martin and Corvette Racing in its efforts to defend both titles.

Coach Ep · 13 Jun 2014, 14:44 (Ref:3419942)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rennen

Okay I get it! I've followed LeMans since the late 1950's...I get it! It's a race for any class of motorised vehicles, drivers AM or PRO...But Why Oh Why, do they all have to Quallify together getting in each others way, preventing them getting a clear lap?

Teams spend huge amopunts of money and time, just to trip over each other trying to put that special lap together, how frustrating the teams, drivers and us fans!

And so many unecessary accidents were caused...causing Red Flags and Slow Down Zones!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the fastest LMP1 times seem to have been set in begining of the Thursday Q2 session anyway?

And amongst the LMP1's, only Nakajima managed to find a clear lap!

Forget tradition...time to let the The GT's and Prototypes have their own sessions to sort their cars out and get a clear lap in!

As much as I don't like the idea of split qualifying sessions it would make sense, just give them 30 minutes or so per class (LMP/GT) at the end of the night or in between sessions. Drivers are still obliged to do their 5 night time laps to qualify which they can do in the regular evening sessions which can be extended a bit by doing an earlier start to those sessions.

The schedule could look something like this then:

Wed
15.00-19.00 Free practice
19.30-20.30 support series
21.00-21.25 Qualifying LMP (laps count towards mandatory night time laps)
21.30-21.55 Qualifying GT (laps count towards mandatory night time laps)
22.00-24.00 Qualifying combined (mandatory night time laps session)

Thu
16.00-18.00 support series
18.30-20.30 Qualifying combined 2
21.00-23.00 Qualifying combined 3 (mandatory night time laps session)
23.05-23.30 Qualifying GT 2
23.35-24.00 Qualifying LMP 2

Voila!

TzeiTzei · 13 Jun 2014, 16:07 (Ref:3419967)

Code:

LMP1
1  8	Toyota Racing		Toyota TS040 Hybrid		Davidson/Lapierre/Buemi		3.23,379
2  7	Toyota Racing	 	Toyota TS040 Hybrid		Wurz/Sarrazin/Nakajima		3.23,770	+0,391
3  3	Audi Sport Team Joest	Audi R18 e-tron quattro		Albuquerque/Bonanomi/Jarvis	3.23,945	+0,566
4  2	Audi Sport Team Joest	Audi R18 e-tron quattro		Fässler/Lotterer/Treluyer	3.24,327	+0,948
5  14	Porsche	Team		Porsche 919 Hybrid		Dumas/Jani/Lieb			3.24,335	+0,956
6  20	Porsche	Team		Porsche 919 Hybrid		Bernhard/Webber/Hartley		3.24,412	+1,033
7  1	Audi Sport Team Joest	Audi R18 e-tron quattro		Di Grassi/Gene/Kristensen	3.26,425	+3,046
8  12	Rebellion Racing	Rebellion R-One-Toyota		Prost/Heidfeld/Beche		3.30,687	+7,308
9  13	Rebellion Racing	Rebellion R-One-Toyota		Kraihamer/Belicchi/Leimer	3.33,607	+10,228

LMP2
1  36	Signatech Alpine	Alpine 450b-Nissan		Chatin/Panciatici/Webb		3.38,913	
2  47	KCMG			Oreca 03R-Nissan		Howson/Bradley/Imperatori	3.39,196	+0,283
3  48	Murphy Prototypes	Oreca 03R-Nissan		Berthon/Gonzalez/Chandhok	3.39,363	+0,450
4  26	G-Drive Racing		Morgan-Nissan			Rusinov/Pla/Canal		3.39,726	+0,813
5  35	OAK Racing		Ligier JS P2-Nissan		Brundle/Mardenborough/Shulz...	3.40,229	+1,316
6  46	Thiriet by TDS		Ligier JS P2-Nissan		Thiriet/Badey/Gommendy		3.40,557	+1,644
7  38	Jota Sport		Zytek Z11SN-Nissan		Dolan/Tincknell/Turvey		3.40,739	+1,826
8  34  	Race Performance	Oreca 03R-Judd			Frey/Mailleux/Lancaster		3.42,388	+3,475
9  37	SMP Racing		Oreca 03R-Nissan		Ladygin/Minassian/Mediani	3.43,075	+4,162
10 24	Sebastien Loeb Racing	Oreca 03R-Nissan		Rast/Charouz/Capillaire		3.43,352	+4,439
11 43	Newblood by Morand 	Morgan-Judd			Klien/Hirsch/Brandela		3.43,501	+4,588
12 42	Caterham Racing		Zytek Z11SN-Nissan		Kimber-Smith/McMurry/Dyson	3.44,051	+5,138
13 27	SMP Racing		Oreca 03R-Nissan		Zlobin/Salo/Ladygin		3.44,060	+5,147
14 29	Pegasus Racing		Morgan-Nissan			Schell/Leutwiler/Roussel	3.44,739	+5,826
15 33	OAK Racing - Team Asia	Ligier JS P2-HPD		Cheng/Tung/Fong			3.46,059	+7,146
16 50	Larbre Competition	Morgan-Judd			Ragues/Taylor/Ihara		3.47,726	+8,813
17 41	Greaves Motorsport	Zytek-Z11SN-Nissan		Munemann/Latif/Winslow		3.48,657	+9,744

   0	Nissan Motorsports	Nissan ZEOD RC			Ordonez/Reip/Motoyama		3.50,743	

GTE PRO
1  97	Aston Martin Racing	Aston Martin Vantage V8		Turner/Mucke/Senna		3.55,609
2  51	AF Corse		Ferrari 458 Italia		Bruni/Vilander/Fisichella	3.55,817	+0,208
3  73	Corvette Racing		Corvette C7.R			Magnussen/Garcia/Taylor		3.56,137	+0,528
4  52	RAM Racing		Ferrari 458 Italia		Griffin/Parente/Leo		3.57,031	+1,422
5  92	Porsche	Team Manthey	Porsche 911 RSR (991)		Holzer/Makowiecki/Lietz		3.57,114	+1,505
6  74	Corvette Racing		Corvette C7.R			Gavin/Milner/Westbrook		3.57,192	+1,583
7  91	Porsche	Team Manthey	Porsche 911 RSR (991)		Pilet/Bergmeister/Tandy		3.57,297	+1,688
8  71	AF Corse		Ferrari 458 Italia		Rigon/Beretta			3.58,208	+2,599

GTE AM
1  98	Aston Martin Racing	Aston Martin Vantage V8		Dalla Lana/Lamy/Nygaard		3.57,709
2  61  	AF Corse		Ferrari 458 Italia		Perez Companc/Cioci/Venturi	3.57,998	+0,289
3  81	AF Corse		Ferrari 458 Italia		Wyatt/Rugolo/Bird		3.58,193	+0,484
4  72	SMP Racing		Ferrari 458 Italia		Bertolini/Shaitar/Basov		3.58,943	+1,234
5  95	Aston Martin Racing	Aston Martin Vantage V8		Poulsen/Heinemeier Hanson/Thiim	3.59,140	+1,431
6  88	Proton Competition	Porsche 911 RSR (991)		Ried/Bachler/Al Qubaisi		4.01,493	+3,784
7  90	8Star Motorsports	Ferrari 458 Italia		Montecalvo/Roda/Ruberti		4.01,550	+3,841
8  53	RAM Racing		Ferrari 458 Italia		Mowlem/Patterson/Hamilton	4.01,756	+4,047
9  75	Prospeed Competition	Porsche 911 GT3 RSR (997)	Perrodo/Collard/Palttala	4.01,990	+4,281
10 76	IMSA Performance Matmut	Porsche 911 GT3 RSR (997)	Narac/Armindo/Hallyday		4.02,980	+5,271
11 66	JMW Motorsport		Ferrari 458 Italia		Al Faisal/Neiman/Pumpelly	4.03,056	+5,347
12 77	Dempsey Racing - Proton	Porsche 911 RSR (991)		Dempsey/Foster/Long		4.03,418	+5,709
13 57	Krohn Racing		Ferrari 458 Italia		Krohn/Jönsson/Collins		4.04,126	+6,417
14 70	Team Taisan		Ferrari 458 Italia		Nakano/Ehret/Rich		4.04,341	+6,632
15 60	AF Corse		Ferrari 458 Italia		Mann/Case/Giammaria		4.05,025	+7,316
16 58	Team Sofrev ASP		Ferrari 458 Italia		Barthez/Pons/Ayari		4.05,498	+7,789
17 79	Prospeed Competition	Porsche 911 GT3 RSR (997)	MacNeil/Curtis/Bleekemolen	4.07,844	+10,135
18 67	IMSA Performance Matmut	Porsche 911 GT3 RSR (997)	Maris/Merlin/Helary		4.08,774	+11,065
19 62	AF Corse		Ferrari 458 Italia		Mallegol/Bachelier/Blank	4.13,886	+16,177

I was interested in how the amateur drivers affect the cars' laptimes so I did some calculations. Then I decided to do the whole field. I took the drivers' fastest times from any of the four sessions and calculated average laptimes for the cars. Dunno if it has any relevance, but there it is anyway.

Pandamasque · 13 Jun 2014, 16:33 (Ref:3419974)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rennen

Okay I get it! I've followed LeMans since the late 1950's...I get it! It's a race for any class of motorised vehicles, drivers AM or PRO...But Why Oh Why, do they all have to Quallify together getting in each others way, preventing them getting a clear lap?

It's not F1. Quelifying is not supposed to be a show. It's called qualifying practice for a reason. It is a practice session where laptimes determine the grid. And without them sharing the track such practice would be rather useless.

Articus · 13 Jun 2014, 16:34 (Ref:3419975)

They really ought to implement a 107% rule for GTE. That 62 car looks like trouble. That cutoff would have been ~4:10

Articus · 13 Jun 2014, 16:37 (Ref:3419978)

But why miss out on the opportunity to make qualifying a show for spectators? How else do you bring even more people to the sport? Making qualifying a show should be a priority. In fact they already did so in the regular WEC rounds. They should have done something similar for Le Mans. Not exactly the same: ditch the lap averaging. They already had 8 scheduled hours of test day running, 10 hours of practice on race week. The impressions I got from many teams is that despite all the red flags, they had so much time that they didn't even know what to do with it. Many teams already had setups on the simulators that were dialed in on the test day. I don't see the issue in taking 1 of the qualifying practice away and making it a full on qualifying session.

Articus · 13 Jun 2014, 16:45 (Ref:3419981)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max91

Greetings Guys

Long time reader and fan of this forum, but never participated.
The BOP for 991RSR-Manthey- They added more restrictions for Le Mans. There is way to much sandbagging going on. Competiveness is out the window.

http://www.crash.net/le-mans/news/20...-measures.html

Le Mans »
Le Mans 24 Hours: Porsche blasts GT balance measures

10 June 2014

"We feel it is a matter of utmost urgency to find a regulation where you don't have to fear being punished for a good performance..."

StumbleUpon

Le Mans 24 Hours: Porsche blasts GT balance measures

Head of Porsche Motorsport Harmut Kristen feels his team is being punished simply for its good performances after it was imposed with extra ballast in an effort to balance the competition ahead of the 2014 Le Mans 24 Hours.

After picking up a double win in the 2014 FIA World Endurance Championship opener at Silverstone, the factory supported Manthey-prepared 911 RSR was given 25kg extra ballast and the diameter of the two restrictors is 0.3mm smaller than last year.

Going on to be beaten by Ferrari last time out in Spa, Kristen doesn't understand the wisdom of the imposed weight penalty and questions whether the 'Balance of Performance is actually balanced'.

“Le Mans is the highlight of the year. For our teams and drivers this race represents an exceptional challenge – and we're feeling highly motivated and very well prepared. After our double victory at the season-opener in Silverstone, our car now has to carry 25 extra kilograms of ballast and the diameter of the two restrictors is now 0.3 millimetres smaller than last year's.

“When considering the additional changes made, as against 2013, at one or the other competitor one has to question to what extent is the Balance of Performance actually balanced.

“We feel it is a matter of utmost urgency in the spirit of the sport to find a regulation for the classification of vehicles where you don't have to fear being punished for a good performance, like what happened to us after Silverstone. Nevertheless, we'll work extremely hard to do a good job at Le Mans – just like last year.”

Winner of the LMGTE Pro and Am classes last season, Porsche will go up against Ferrari, Aston Martin and Corvette Racing in its efforts to defend both titles.

Porsche can't complain because last year they ran well below the minimum weight, and had a larger restrictor than their engine size allowed for in the rulebook. The Ferrari is the only car running to spec on that front so good for them that they are on top. If Porsche want, they can go build a better 911 and turn it into a better GTE car that can compete at the regulations without waivers. It's a win win for customers and for the sport. Right now they have no business complaining about getting a weight break.

The only thing they should be fighting for is for the Aston to get slapped with the same penalty in it's illegality...

Regardless the cars are super close despite the BOP and I'm excited for the race no matter how artificial the BOP has made it.

dbagtbag · 13 Jun 2014, 16:50 (Ref:3419985)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Articus

They really ought to implement a 107% rule for GTE. That 62 car looks like trouble. That cutoff would have been ~4:10

Perhaps they had some machine trouble?

Articus · 13 Jun 2014, 17:00 (Ref:3419989)

I can't tell. They logged a ton of laps between test day right up through qualy practice. Nothing that would indicate mechanical trouble. I made a mistake, I think 1 or two of the guys in the car are capable of meeting the 107% rule just by the skin of their teeth. It might be the bronze driver that was a good bit slower.

tux · 13 Jun 2014, 17:01 (Ref:3419991)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Articus

They really ought to implement a 107% rule for GTE. That 62 car looks like trouble. That cutoff would have been ~4:10

The #70 although quicker caused much more trouble though. Lost count of the number of spins and offs the car had.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 13 Jun 2014, 17:12 (Ref:3419992)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

It's not F1. Quelifying is not supposed to be a show. It's called qualifying practice for a reason. It is a practice session where laptimes determine the grid. And without them sharing the track such practice would be rather useless.

I've always thought of qualifying as being just as much part of the LeMans experience as the race itself. This is the chance to see the cars out on the track or the first time and is very much part of the build up to the race itself.

Max91 · 13 Jun 2014, 17:15 (Ref:3419994)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Articus

Porsche can't complain because last year they ran well below the minimum weight, and had a larger restrictor than their engine size allowed for in the rulebook. The Ferrari is the only car running to spec on that front so good for them that they are on top. If Porsche want, they can go build a better 911 and turn it into a better GTE car that can compete at the regulations without waivers. It's a win win for customers and for the sport. Right now they have no business complaining about getting a weight break.

The only thing they should be fighting for is for the Aston to get slapped with the same penalty in it's illegality...

Regardless the cars are super close despite the BOP and I'm excited for the race no matter how artificial the BOP has made it.

Then they should enforce the rules for sandbagging period. Porsche has the only six cylinder as we know; plus their weight was insignificant. As for last year AstonMartin was faster. The playing field is not level. The rules are wacky.

aston-martin-asasaston Martin was faster.

Articus · 13 Jun 2014, 17:41 (Ref:3420003)

Aston Martin exhibited the most blatant case of Sandbagging I have ever witnessed. They had the drivers of that 97 car singing the same tune, crying foul of the rules. Then Mucke hammers down a 3.54.8 flat which is identical to last year despite running heavier car and a higher ride height. You have to believe that last year's aston martin was 3.53 material but they told Makowiecki not go there.

Purist · 13 Jun 2014, 17:48 (Ref:3420004)

I suspect though, that if everyone had to run "to spec", the Ferrari would be untouchable. And at today's level of refinement (not speed, per se), everyone else would have to build clones of the 458 to be in the game. That would destroy several essential points of having a GT class: different solutions to the same problem, meaningful mechanical variety in the class, meaningful mechanical and aesthetic differences that actually reflect the car companies being represented, and I'm sure there are more.

It might be a different story if there was a true GT1 class with today's vanguard of hypercars, but GTE, such as it is, represents models that are a tier or two below that.

Max91 · 13 Jun 2014, 17:51 (Ref:3420006)

Dynometer should be done on all cars-same day-same machine-problem solved. In a closed facility-temps. Stay consistent.

Articus · 13 Jun 2014, 18:26 (Ref:3420011)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purist

I suspect though, that if everyone had to run "to spec", the Ferrari would be untouchable. And at today's level of refinement (not speed, per se), everyone else would have to build clones of the 458 to be in the game. That would destroy several essential points of having a GT class: different solutions to the same problem, meaningful mechanical variety in the class, meaningful mechanical and aesthetic differences that actually reflect the car companies being represented, and I'm sure there are more.

It might be a different story if there was a true GT1 class with today's vanguard of hypercars, but GTE, such as it is, represents models that are a tier or two below that.

Absolutely. That's why BOP must exist. The problem is that ACO changes it every single race!! That is a no no!

TF110 · 13 Jun 2014, 23:31 (Ref:3420140)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Articus

Aston Martin exhibited the most blatant case of Sandbagging I have ever witnessed. They had the drivers of that 97 car singing the same tune, crying foul of the rules. Then Mucke hammers down a 3.54.8 flat which is identical to last year despite running heavier car and a higher ride height. You have to believe that last year's aston martin was 3.53 material but they told Makowiecki not go there.

They were 1195kg last year? The cars are nearly the same as the 2013 models.

EricS · 14 Jun 2014, 00:36 (Ref:3420155)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Articus

Absolutely. That's why BOP must exist. The problem is that ACO changes it every single race!! That is a no no!

They should do what they are doing with P1 and only adjusting "EOT" after Le Mans each year.

ederss7 · 14 Jun 2014, 07:00 (Ref:3420213)

What have we learned so far about stint length and tyre wear(LMP1) ?

TF110 · 14 Jun 2014, 08:23 (Ref:3420232)

13 or 14 lap stints. 4 stints per tire unless they want to keep the new driver on older tires or they do less laps per fuel stint.

GT-Eins · 14 Jun 2014, 10:23 (Ref:3420260)

Just recently added more Statistics from P&Q:

http://www.gt-eins.de/Berichte2014/2...al=Statistiken

tomazy · 15 Jun 2014, 16:35 (Ref:3422109)

I just realised, that Ideal lap for Audi #2 during the race was 3'21.755, that would be pole position in qualy

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