The Historically Accurate EV discussion

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by grantp

And the Flux Capacitor.


https://www.flux-capacitor.co.uk/

A historic car, embracing updated EV as the future?

[midgetman]

Yeah but this...

https://www.euronews.com/living/2020...-electric-cars

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[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Yeah but this...

https://www.euronews.com/living/2020...-electric-cars

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The article seems to be undated Max.

Or did I just miss the date somewhere?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by grantp

The article seems to be undated Max.

Or did I just miss the date somewhere?

It says 'last updated: 11/04/2020' at the top of the page when I open it?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It says 'last updated: 11/04/2020' at the top of the page when I open it?

So it does.



So it could have been published on on April 1st then?

[midgetman]

There's a lot about it on the internet if you search. To close the Historic Racing circle, they went to FoS in 2019. There's a video showing their first flying prototype on FB and LI. It's an awful lot of work for an April Fools joke. There's a video of the unmanned prototype on their web site.

https://youtu.be/7ke7Md-wrJI

However it does have all the hallmarks of an investment pitch, lots of articles in business magazines but no sign of any finished product.

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[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

There's a lot about it on the internet if you search. To close the Historic Racing circle, they went to FoS in 2019. There's a video showing their first flying prototype on FB and LI. It's an awful lot of work for an April Fools joke. There's a video of the unmanned prototype on their web site.

https://youtu.be/7ke7Md-wrJI

However it does have all the hallmarks of an investment pitch, lots of articles in business magazines but no sign of any finished product.

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If they can fly as controlled drones I'm not sure why anyone would think putting a human on board would be a good idea.

And how does the thing class as a "car".

Are they expecting to compete only against the clock? The concept of a pack of them hurtling around a 3D track has some appeal but perhaps only in the same way that the Romans enjoyed gladiatorial games.

Pit stops could be fun.

[midgetman]

I think the whole point is to have it manned and it's just the concept being tested as remote control. There are currently air races round closed courses in a head to head manner, I've seen images of e.g. WW2 Mustangs being used.

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[crmalcolm]

More news is emerging of developments designed to deliver more EV use in an effective way:

Lotus will partner with British Gas parent company Centrica to develop a “new model” that they claim will “redesign” electric vehicle ownership.
'Lotus and Centrica will work together to develop what they call a flexible platform that “fully integrates future mobility and energy” by “making the car an extension of the home.” While no specific details have been given, it will involve using Lotus EVs for home-based vehicle-to-grid charging, where energy stored in the car’s battery can be fed into the gris while it is plugged in.'

Under the skin: How better AC/DC inversion will boost EVs
'British firm Equipmake, which builds the innovative high-speed Ampere EV motor we looked at recently, has also developed an inverter that’s smaller, lighter, more efficient and able to get more bang-for-buck out of a battery.
Although mainstream use is a little way off yet, because of the high cost, the new mosfet-based inverter technology isn’t only more efficient but smaller and lighter, too. Typically, the power-to-weight ratio of a contemporary IGBT inverter is 40kW/kg, whereas the new mosfet design can deliver 100kW/kg – and that, given the massive effort that goes into optimising EVs for increased range, is a colossal amount.'

[S griffin]

Good luck to them I say. Wonder which will succeed. The Lotus one is a good idea, but might take a bit of time. Still I am sure it has the right idea. Both are very intriguing ideas.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by grantp

If they can fly as controlled drones I'm not sure why anyone would think putting a human on board would be a good idea.

And how does the thing class as a "car".

Are they expecting to compete only against the clock? The concept of a pack of them hurtling around a 3D track has some appeal but perhaps only in the same way that the Romans enjoyed gladiatorial games.

Pit stops could be fun.

That's my thoughts - aren't "flying cars" effectively "planes"? And how do you control track limits, or of course marshal the races safely?

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

More news is emerging of developments designed to deliver more EV use in an effective way:

Lotus will partner with British Gas parent company Centrica to develop a “new model” that they claim will “redesign” electric vehicle ownership.
'Lotus and Centrica will work together to develop what they call a flexible platform that “fully integrates future mobility and energy” by “making the car an extension of the home.” While no specific details have been given, it will involve using Lotus EVs for home-based vehicle-to-grid charging, where energy stored in the car’s battery can be fed into the gris while it is plugged in.'

Under the skin: How better AC/DC inversion will boost EVs
'British firm Equipmake, which builds the innovative high-speed Ampere EV motor we looked at recently, has also developed an inverter that’s smaller, lighter, more efficient and able to get more bang-for-buck out of a battery.
Although mainstream use is a little way off yet, because of the high cost, the new mosfet-based inverter technology isn’t only more efficient but smaller and lighter, too. Typically, the power-to-weight ratio of a contemporary IGBT inverter is 40kW/kg, whereas the new mosfet design can deliver 100kW/kg – and that, given the massive effort that goes into optimising EVs for increased range, is a colossal amount.'

The Lotus idea of Car to Grid is a good one , which is why the national Grid have been pushing the idea of EVs.
If they can use cars to store spare energy when demand is low , then they can save a lot of money . Last year they paid out something over £130 Million to renewable energy generators to shut down when the grid did not need it .
And as a back up when demand is high it gives them a little bit more capacity .
And if you come to use your car & it has been drained , then at least you have saved the rest of the countries consumers a tiny amount on their electric bills .

As for the new , expensive , high tech inverters . As someone said in the comments , there are only very small improvements possible in the equipment already in use , so the only gain will be a few Kilos less weight overall.
So almost no extra range or performance for a lot more cost .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

And if you come to use your car & it has been drained , then at least you have saved the rest of the countries consumers a tiny amount on their electric bills .

I would assume that, realistically, the system will be configured to only 'drain' a minimal percentage of charge to smooth out the grid.
Already, there are margins between the overall capacity of an EV's battery and the amount it is charged to.
e.g. if the maximum capacity of the battery is 100GWh, then it may normally be charged to 80GWh for the vehicle, and an additional 5GWh as a store for the grid.

When we reach the point where the current grid capacity requires support from EVs, then the amount of EVs available to balance the grid will also have risen by the same factor. So for the benefit of the grid we need more people to adopt EVs.

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

As for the new , expensive , high tech inverters . As someone said in the comments , there are only very small improvements possible in the equipment already in use , so the only gain will be a few Kilos less weight overall.
So almost no extra range or performance for a lot more cost .

The cost may be high, but that is in part down to the development of the technology. As more users adopt the improved technology, then the cost per unit will inevitably fall.

What would the world look like if we never developed technology because it was just a bit too expensive?
Apollo's guidance computer cost an estimated $150,000 to build, but today a similar computer would cost a fraction of that.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I would assume that, realistically, the system will be configured to only 'drain' a minimal percentage of charge to smooth out the grid.
Already, there are margins between the overall capacity of an EV's battery and the amount it is charged to.
e.g. if the maximum capacity of the battery is 100GWh, then it may normally be charged to 80GWh for the vehicle, and an additional 5GWh as a store for the grid.

When we reach the point where the current grid capacity requires support from EVs, then the amount of EVs available to balance the grid will also have risen by the same factor. So for the benefit of the grid we need more people to adopt EVs.







The cost may be high, but that is in part down to the development of the technology. As more users adopt the improved technology, then the cost per unit will inevitably fall.

What would the world look like if we never developed technology because it was just a bit too expensive?
Apollo's guidance computer cost an estimated $150,000 to build, but today a similar computer would cost a fraction of that.

Am assuming you meant 100KWh for the battery .

We have already reached , [ for some time ], the point of often needing extra capacity on the grid , which is the reason for Dinorwig [ £425 Million ] & other pumped storage systems .
It would take 2 Million EVs , each putting back 5KWh into the grid , to have the same effect as just Dinorwig , which is only one part of the grid storage capacity , & frequently used in Winter time .

So as long as the cars are not used through the Winter months , & are only charged up in the Summer when there is less load on the grid , then they could be useful as extra grid storage without costing the National Grid money .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Am assuming you meant 100KWh

Yes, my error. I meant kWh, but the unit was not the important part, it was the concept of EVs returning a percentage of their charge to the grid. My example was 5%, this figure might be variable.

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

It would take 2 Million EVs , each putting back 5KWh into the grid , to have the same effect as just Dinorwig , which is only one part of the grid storage capacity , & frequently used in Winter time .

Or in other terms, 1/15th of the passenger cars in the UK, sacrificing 5% of their storage capacity, matches the Dinorwig storage.

[S griffin]

I see, it is an interesting concept. The more development the better. I just hope this is not all for nothing, but there will be a day when they are perfected. They are not there yet, still not enough EV cars out there. But it is a start

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The more development the better. I just hope this is not all for nothing,

reminds me of the following:

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I think the whole point is to have it manned and it's just the concept being tested as remote control. There are currently air races round closed courses in a head to head manner, I've seen images of e.g. WW2 Mustangs being used.

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But I thought these manned drones are expected to operate quite close to the ground - which is why they are referred to as "cars"? Presumably it they needed to go higher some other regulations and licenses would be required.

Plane races, where not against the clock as was the Red Bull series, tend to have a greater height differential available in which to operate and a limited number of planes in the air at any one time. That said I'm not sure of the rules and regs so will head off to look them up.

ETA: The number of racing events seems to vary a lot over the years.

The latest seems to be Airbus touting Electric planes this year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Race_E

I wonder if that will survive the crisis in Aerospace?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by grantp

And how does the thing class as a "car".

Normally, a flying car is distinct from a plane because it is designed to operate from roads as well as in the air. Typically they are seen as a door-to-door transport, whereas a plane needs an APOD/APOE to function.

On the ground, a flying car is subject to road regulations.
When it comes to being in the air, air regulations apply.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

reminds me of the following:

That reminds me of the 60s and early 70s.

Just not enough space on the slide to add Development of a barter economy and the creation, via natural bio-engineering, of Unicorns as a Halo species to represent the Church Of Gaia.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Normally, a flying car is distinct from a plane because it is designed to operate from roads as well as in the air. Typically they are seen as a door-to-door transport, whereas a plane needs an APOD/APOE to function.

On the ground, a flying car is subject to road regulations.
When it comes to being in the air, air regulations apply.

So are they going to allow cars to run with skids?

[S griffin]

Only if it aids development

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by grantp

So are they going to allow cars to run with skids?

Looking at the article linked, I struggle to see how they can be defined as 'cars'.

A team of test pilots - cars don't need pilots, aircraft do.
fly between 5-40 metres off the ground - so can't be driven, just flown.
the eVTOL (Electrical Vertical Take Off and Landing) sector - VTOL is a technology applicable to aircraft. Sticking an 'e' in front of it doesn't change the category of vehicle.

The concept seems interesting, and might contribute to the future of personal transport. Personally, I find it a bit of a stretch to call them cars though. I see them as electric personal transport helicopters. (e-helos). Nothing about them makes them a car. - 'a road vehicle with an engine, usually four wheels, and seating for between one and five people'

[midgetman]

I'm against flying cars. Imagine a traffic jam happening 50' above your head. When the car breaks down "the only way is DOWN" baby!

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[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

reminds me of the following:

Reminds me of this one .