The Historically Accurate EV discussion

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

How much more up to date is the newer model?

November 2019 – Elon Musk says future Plaid Powertrains will have upgrade battery packs for more range. Tesla Cybertruck revealed.
January 2020 – Elon says ‘won’t be long’ before we see a 400 mile range Model S. Rumors of battery upgrade coming soon. Wireless phone charging for S and X.
February 2020 – Tesla releases Tesla Model S/X “Long Range Plus” variants with 390/351 range with a software update released in March to reflect that increase.
April 2020 – Software update to boost performance for Raven Model S/X.

The newer models have the updated 18650 battery format

[S griffin]

That shows how much investment they are putting in. This company is never going to sleep. It’s gonna keep going till it has it’s grip on the car industry. Let’s see what it can do. Still time to sort more things out

[crmalcolm]

A rival to the Model 3 has emerged, in the form of the BYD Han EV.

The firm's 'Blade Battery' shows that safety is being developed alongside performance. The range is 376 miles when based on the NEDC, the WLTP figures are not available yet. Price is expected to be in the region of £40k, for a saloon that delivers 0-60 times under 4 seconds.

[Cliff Ryan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It's clear that EVs are not suitable for a lot of the towing situations people are looking for (yet). Maybe they won't ever meet all of the requirements, but perhaps our view needs to change and we have to rely on specialist towing firms?

Already, fewer and fewer drivers have the categories on their license to tow anything meaningful, and manufacturers are also less interested in the homologation requirements.
The same is true of all PU types it seems. A query a couple of years ago in a MB dealership about the towing capacity of a GLE was met with 'errr, I might have to phone the factory to see if we can get the spec'. Then again, the sales rep was keen to show me how good the sloping rear hatch made the car look more coupe-ish. I pointed out that it made the entry awkward for a large dog, and he was flummoxed.

EVs are always improving, both in range and capability. The infrastructure is also on an improving curve. As more and more drivers adopt the technology, economies of scale will come into force for manufacturers to introduce wider ranges to meet requirements that become less 'niche'.

All agreed apart from having to rely on specialist towing firms as that's not something I'd like to do. I enjoy taking my car to and from circuits, it's part of the fun for me, I'm not a big fan of arrive and drive, but we are all different.

Surely you don't expect car salesmen to have much product knowledge, they are just shifting boxes

If the towing capacity doesn't improve, which I hope it will, then I may just keep my Range Rover for towing and get an EV for 'normal' use. Everything's on hold at the moment anyway, so no rush.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

November 2019 – Elon Musk says future Plaid Powertrains will have upgrade battery packs for more range. Tesla Cybertruck revealed.
January 2020 – Elon says ‘won’t be long’ before we see a 400 mile range Model S. Rumors of battery upgrade coming soon. Wireless phone charging for S and X.
February 2020 – Tesla releases Tesla Model S/X “Long Range Plus” variants with 390/351 range with a software update released in March to reflect that increase.
April 2020 – Software update to boost performance for Raven Model S/X.

The newer models have the updated 18650 battery format

Even with all of your promotion for Evs , you are being very vague of actual facts .
So I am guessing you are talking about the claimed 100 KWh battery upgrade for the Tesla X .
Which means that , for your about £100,000 cost , you can then do about 110 miles when towing . And over a lot of runs you would spend more time charging up than actually driving .

Aside from all of the "Pie In The Sky " predictions , EVs will probably never be capable of useful towing applications

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Even with all of your promotion for Evs , you are being very vague of actual facts .
So I am guessing you are talking about the claimed 100 KWh battery upgrade for the Tesla X .

They're not my facts - they are quoted comments from Musk.
One of Tesla's selling points is not the towing abilities of the car, it just represents one of the capabilities of the vehicle

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Which means that , for your about £100,000 cost , you can then do about 110 miles when towing .

For the same £100,000 cost, I could do zero miles towing if I purchased a Porsche 911 Carrera 4 Convertible. For both vehicles, people will purchase them for other reasons. The point is, with the Tesla X, you can tow if you need to.

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

you can then do about 110 miles when towing .

Which is a capability. It might not be a huge range, but it is a capability of the vehicle. Although where you get 110 miles from is unclear. The upgraded packs have a range of over 300 miles (real world) so towing will bring this down to 150 miles at your hypothetical 50% point.

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

And over a lot of runs you would spend more time charging up than actually driving .

??? Even if you only achieved the pessimistic figure you give of 110 miles, that still represents over two hours of driving on UK roads, and the recharge time of a Tesla X is about 45 mins. Most cars spend more time stationary than mobile, EVs are no different.

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

, EVs will probably never be capable of useful towing applications

The current technology in EVs makes it difficult for them to be used as long-range vehicles for regular towing. Whether manufacturers even care about that depends on if there is a market for private towing.
In the commercial world, many EVs capable of towing are in development or early stages of production.
Tesla Semi and Freightliner eCascadia are notable examples in Class 8.
Others in varying classes include BYD Company, Cummins, Daimler AG, Einride, Kalmar, Kenworth, Nikola Motor, Proterra, Inc., Xos Trucks, VDL, DAF Trucks, Toyota, Uber and Volkswagen.
It's not pie-in-the-sky, it's the direction road vehicles are heading in.

Are EVs the only solution? - Clearly not. As previously, the future will see a range of technologies on the road. Each one having its own pros and cons.
The pie-in-the-sky comes from the notion that EVs will not be viable for a wide range (if not the majority) of future transport solutions.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by grantp

And, in the case of Tesla, report back to base about the fun you are having.

For the others ... nothing like having everything recorded in a black box for when required by ... whoever decides they require it.

Of course the current crop of new ICE vehicles are not entirely free of such "benefits".

It's OK to be paranoid because they really are out to get you.

Carrying a mobile phone means you are never alone. That said I believe you can with impunity accelerate to 60/70mph in under three secs without breaking any laws (considering the conditions of course) so you can still have fun.

[midgetman]

I really can't understand the antagonism to EVs given that no-one is suggesting we all switch to them tomorrow. Seeing the average age on this forum, it's not gonna be our problem

The ongoing CV19 world is going to be very different anyway, why wouldn't our driving tendencies change too? I'm sure as the switch over to EVs takes place there'll be an adjustment period. So Cliff will run around in his electric daily driver and pay heavily for the privilege of having a gas-guzzler to tow his gas-guzzling toy on race weekends.

It'll happen. It'll be fine. We'll cope.


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[grantp]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

It's OK to be paranoid because they really are out to get you.

Carrying a mobile phone means you are never alone. That said I believe you can with impunity accelerate to 60/70mph in under three secs without breaking any laws (considering the conditions of course) so you can still have fun.

Actually Peter I'm not sure that you can, at least not without some risk of prosecution.

Some laws (more than we might imagine?) could be deployed to cover numerous non-specific areas. If the authorities decided that furious acceleration was unacceptable they could probably make a Dangerous Driving charge stick.

You could probably get away with most possible "Furious Riding" charges on ordinary bicycles but maybe not on an over-powerful, regulated Electric bike.

We may be moving into new territory. Imagine what may happen when we see a rise in accidents on the new and expensive Cycleways that people in power seem to like the sound of. Chap takes out a wobbly pensioner with his modified but disguised e-bike capable of 50 mph. A flood of new regulations might result with cars covered as well.

But anyway currently the biggest benefit of electric cars seems to be in Cities. Just the places where the local politicians seem to be so keen on changing the infrastructure so that cars, of any motive power, will become less and less useful. Certainly not places where anyone should even be thinking about acceleration times. Or having fun.

[Peter Mallett]

As I said. If the conditions allow. DD and WDC and A are always there but there is nothing to say we can't do something as long as we ensure no damage.

[midgetman]

Racing between traffic lights?

What will the modified car industry do? I suppose they could look at battery super coolers, friction reducers or - or what? It's a whole new world.

Could be exciting.

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[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Racing between traffic lights?

What will the modified car industry do? I suppose they could look at battery super coolers, friction reducers or - or what? It's a whole new world.

Could be exciting.

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And the exciting new world gets ever closer.

2015 BMW i8s are now available for £40k. They are tax free and the battery packs carry an 8yr/100,000 mile warranty.

Ferrari are looking at 2015 for their first EV. Leaked patents earlier this year hint that it’s working on a four-wheel-drive two-seater with a motor mounted to each wheel.
Galliera: “As soon as electrified technology is developed, that will allow us to produce a car that fits with our position. Then why not? But the key is the technology: we will not just make a Ferrari that’s electric for the sake of it. If we bring in new technology, then we need to bring something new to the market. That’s how Ferrari has always worked with new technology. The evolution of new technology is 100% in the DNA of Ferrari.”

Ferrari are predicting the time that technology will be ready for a full EV supercar sometime between 2025 and 2032.
“We will meet all the regulations that will come into force to compete in a market, and we don’t believe that such regulations will force us to make special plans.”

[Peter Mallett]

Can you provide a link to that info please?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Can you provide a link to that info please?

Sorry - yes.

The Ferrari info is here - Ferrari says first EV will pioneer new technology

An example of an i8 for sale is here - https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classif...02005119273574

[Peter Mallett]

Yes I did wonder where that BMW price came from. Likewise it is a hybrid rather than pure EV.

[GORDON STREETER]

All these comments regarding what an EV can and can't do, I've realised that my old diesel Pug has only used one gallon of fuel in the last 5/6 weeks in the UK, that must be some sort of a record !

[Peter Mallett]

My Grand Cherokee can beat that!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

All these comments regarding what an EV can and can't do, I've realised that my old diesel Pug has only used one gallon of fuel in the last 5/6 weeks in the UK, that must be some sort of a record !

And at the same time, the value of the rest of the tank has plummeted.

If people filled up their cars just before lock down, their 'investment' has tanked.

[midgetman]

Everybody is telling me about these cheap fuel prices. Maybe it'll be worth me re-taxing my lorry and filling the tank?

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[John Elwin]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Everybody is telling me about these cheap fuel prices. Maybe it'll be worth me re-taxing my lorry and filling the tank?

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Diesel at local Carrefour here is 1,13.8 euros per litre, or just about £1. Petrol is more, around 1,20/1,21.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I've realised that my old diesel Pug has only used one gallon of fuel in the last 5/6 weeks in the UK

Sorry Gordon, just for the "record" I feel someone should tell you how Pug owners call that in France: a leak!

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by John Elwin

Diesel at local Carrefour here is 1,13.8 euros per litre, or just about £1. Petrol is more, around 1,20/1,21.

About 18 months ago I towed a trailer & car down to the south of France .
It was when the fuel taxes had just gone up & before the " Yellow Vests" protests .
Diesel had always been cheaper than in the UK , but was surprised to find it was over 1.60 Euro per Litre on the Autoroute services .

Have the protests had much effect on currant prices & is it back to less than petrol again.

[Gerard C]

Today average nationwide prices:
SP98/E5: 1,314 €; SP95/E5: 1,254 €; SP95/E10: 1,234 € and Gazole B7 1,173 €
On any autoroute, toll or free, you will be charged more for what they call "services"…
We have several websites helping you to prepare your travel but nothing will prepare you to pay those prices!

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Today average nationwide prices:
SP98/E5: 1,314 €; SP95/E5: 1,254 €; SP95/E10: 1,234 € and Gazole B7 1,173 €
On any autoroute, toll or free, you will be charged more for what they call "services"…
We have several websites helping you to prepare your travel but nothing will prepare you to pay those prices!

I have driven into or through France many hundreds of times , although not so much in the last few years .
As in the UK , Autoroute / Motorway prices are always higher .
But that time it was a bit of a shock at Over 1.60 Euro a Litre , so hopefully the prices won,t go up to that again & the "Yellow vests " have done some good .

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Today average nationwide prices:
SP98/E5: 1,314 €; SP95/E5: 1,254 €; SP95/E10: 1,234 € and Gazole B7 1,173 €
On any autoroute, toll or free, you will be charged more for what they call "services"…
We have several websites helping you to prepare your travel but nothing will prepare you to pay those prices!

I paid the equivalent of 0.58 Euros per litre of BP 98 Ultimate unleaded yesterday.