bourdais v montoya....

**gomick** · 8 Jul 2004, 11:56 (Ref:1030125)

what do people think....

could sebastian dominate champcar like juan did in 1999

i think sebastian will go to f1 because he is fast and can win races, and because france needs an f1 driver

any other comments on sebas'

Mouser · 8 Jul 2004, 12:30 (Ref:1030186)

Sebastian would have to get a very competitive ride in order to beat Ferrari. Unless he is only in it for the
money,I think he will stay in Champ cars for a while
longer. But who knows? Maybe he has the talent to beat
Michael Shumacher consistently.

Fuzzyfelt · 8 Jul 2004, 12:39 (Ref:1030199)

He's certainly fast and can win races and he seems intelligent and able to play the sponsors game (yawn).

But, what is the level of competition in Champ Cars this year (nothing is broadcast here in The Province)? Tracy seems to be back to his old ways and no one else seems consistent. Enge should have beaten him in F3000 were it not for his 'tainted sample'. I don't think he has what it takes to beat MS. I don't think he has what it take to beat JPM and he hasn't consistently beaten MS.

Would Renault take on the added home pressure of a French driver? I'd love to see national drivers in national cars but it seems to be something from the past which just won't happen any more (bring on A1-GP)

Fogelhund · 8 Jul 2004, 13:06 (Ref:1030243)

Montoya is better.

As mentioned Enge beat Bourdais in F3000, and Bourdais has only recently shown top form in OWRS. His performance(s) and moreso his attitude at LM was disgusting to put it bluntly.

Kicking-back · 8 Jul 2004, 13:45 (Ref:1030289)

Montoya is much better.

Bourdais isn't beating as strong a field as JPM had to deal with - and his attitude (re: Le Mans) is appalling.

Uesque · 8 Jul 2004, 14:43 (Ref:1030332)

Well, Renault is coming on strong, and the attitude would seem to suit F1. I do believe the raw talent of Montoya is superior.

Snrub · 8 Jul 2004, 14:55 (Ref:1030337)

Unquestionably Montoya is faster. However I do think Bourdais is F1 caliber. Bourdais isn't always faster than Junky and there's no way I'd count PT out of the rest of the races or for that matter some other driver. I really see Bourdais comming from the back of the field, passing everyone and winning. Montoya made everyone else look bad and could win in a poorly setup car or starting in any position. We've only seen Bourdais win when his car was good.

As for Montoya, we had a poll a while back where the members of this forum voted that Dario had a better '99 season than Montoya. My point is that the majority of people on this forum do not agree with your assertion that Montoya dominated. (I agree with you) Montoya has been somewhat surprising in F1 with his lack of success. Much of it can be attributed to his car and circumstances, but some of it clearly falls on his shoulders. As for not running with MS, through MS's career Montoya is the only driver to actually challange and beat MS in a situation where it was the DRIVER making the difference rather than the car. Take two cars, drop Montoya and any other driver in and Montoya will win. It seems to be the rest of whats involved in racing that has limited his success.

I'm sick and tired of "the field stinks" garbage. To those who believe this, when was the field last not garbage? 2001? 2002? Before that? Most of the "star" CART drivers became "big" because they ran competitively with known drivers. For some reason people only apply this rule to past and not current drivers. The other big factor: Back then in a lot of races drivers were much more crippled by poorer equipment than they have today. So even if one wants to maintain the assertion that the field isn't quiet as competitive, the cars make up the difference.

lnin0 · 8 Jul 2004, 23:12 (Ref:1030773)

What was Bourdais attitude at LM if you mind me asking? I was at the Cleveland GP and SB was easily one of the most outgoing drivers there. Junky was the exact opposite.

Mags · 9 Jul 2004, 01:19 (Ref:1030854)

You are asking the wrong person! I adore him! I always got a hug and kiss everytime I saw him. He was HOUNDED there!! Hometown boy, and he was grace under pressure. A wonderful young man. I can't say enough good things about Seb. He had a little "fan" club in the village, too. He was brilliant!!

JohnSSC · 9 Jul 2004, 01:51 (Ref:1030876)

That Seb! He's the Ginchiest!

Seriously, we could spend all day comparing teams/drivers then and now to no real effect. I think Bourdais can dominate in what has become a spec series - when the car is "right."

Montoya on the other hand was much better at improvising: if it didn't work he made it work - somehow!

Mags · 9 Jul 2004, 02:01 (Ref:1030881)

Montoya takes my breath away. He's simply the best, and I bet he would beat TGF in the EXACT, now notice I say EXACT, because you darn well know Rubuens doesn't HAVE the same car, as TGF does.

Brian W Keske · 9 Jul 2004, 02:46 (Ref:1030896)

Quote:

Originally posted by lnin0
What was Bourdais attitude at LM if you mind me asking? I was at the Cleveland GP and SB was easily one of the most outgoing drivers there. Junky was the exact opposite.

He made a very poor judgement during the last half of the race and took Martin Short (Rollcentre) out in the process by running up his rear end, and punting him off track. You have to be aware of what, how and where to race, and Mr Bourdais made an incredibly silly move during a 24 hour race. There were many other places to attempt to pass. Immaturity would be a good word to use. If he did that in F1 they would eat him for lunch.

After the incident, he took no responsibility for his action...even saying he didn't even think he actually hit Martin. Which is incredible as it was obvious it was his fault.

I always liked him, but after that incident, and his denial, I lost much respect for him as a driver.

Mags · 9 Jul 2004, 03:41 (Ref:1030919)

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian W Keske
He made a very poor judgement during the last half of the race and took Martin Short (Rollcentre) out in the process by running up his rear end, and punting him off track. You have to be aware of what, how and where to race, and Mr Bourdais made an incredibly silly move during a 24 hour race. There were many other places to attempt to pass. Immaturity would be a good word to use. If he did that in F1 they would eat him for lunch.

After the incident, he took no responsibility for his action...even saying he didn't even think he actually hit Martin. Which is incredible as it was obvious it was his fault.

I always liked him, but after that incident, and his denial, I lost much respect for him as a driver.

Yet, I spoke to several other drivers in Portland (at the CART race) that said they watched and that he didn't do anything wrong.. and they are NO Seb lovers...

HERE is a funny, the MOMENT I saw Seb in Portland (after our ritual hug kiss-kiss) he said "Did you hear what blah blah said about what Martin Short said??" And I had to tell him "No, I was covering the race, I don't get to WATCH IT!!"

The curse of the media....

jjspierx · 9 Jul 2004, 04:23 (Ref:1030938)

Well its apparent the are both great drivers. As for Enge winning the F3000 series before his "tained sample" as it was so aptly put, it was still apparent that Bourdais was the dominant driver in the series. Bourdais dominated the first half of the season from what I remember, and had a few mechanicals/incidents that put Enge over the top in points. Both of them were incredibly fast won several races that year though.

I read the thread in the sportscar forum about Sebastiens incident at Lemans, and frankly I'm surprised at how many of you judge him based on that one incident. I'm not excusing what he did, or what he said afterwards, but from EVER other thing I've seen and heard of him doing, that one incident seems to be an exception and I sure won't judge him or his character based off that.

Mags · 9 Jul 2004, 04:37 (Ref:1030943)

Quote:

Originally posted by jjspierx
Well its apparent the are both great drivers. As for Enge winning the F3000 series before his "tained sample" as it was so aptly put, it was still apparent that Bourdais was the dominant driver in the series. Bourdais dominated the first half of the season from what I remember, and had a few mechanicals/incidents that put Enge over the top in points. Both of them were incredibly fast won several races that year though.

I read the thread in the sportscar forum about Sebastiens incident at Lemans, and frankly I'm surprised at how many of you judge him based on that one incident. I'm not excusing what he did, or what he said afterwards, but from EVER other thing I've seen and heard of him doing, that one incident seems to be an exception and I sure won't judge him or his character based off that.

I don't believe he did it on purpose; if he did it at all. He's a great driver, and I've watched him the last 2 years in CART, and I can't think of 1 incident in which anyone wanted to go after his throat. I remember in Vancouver 2003 he wanted to go kill Tracy! He's a VERY good, quick, fast learner. He should be in that new Williams seat.

Brian W Keske · 9 Jul 2004, 05:24 (Ref:1030960)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mags
I don't believe he did it on purpose; if he did it at all.

Oh believe me, he 'did' it. The commentators talked about it rather harshly on the broadcast, and rightly so. After an interview with him following the incident, they (the broadcasters, Hobbs included I believe) even ripped into him further...again...rightly so. They were quite turned off by his arrogant attitude, (in an interview after he got out of the car), as he actually denied it happening at all. Not sure what planet he was on during that lap.

No, I don't necessarily judge a driver by one mistake, but at least be a man enough to own up to your mistake. Rollcentre was having a very good race up to that point, and Martin hit very hard a couple laps later, (a frightening hit actually), after his suspension broke as a result of the hit.

It was obvious he was in the wrong at Le Mans.

Mags · 9 Jul 2004, 05:49 (Ref:1030972)

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian W Keske
Oh believe me, he 'did' it. The commentators talked about it rather harshly on the broadcast, and rightly so. After an interview with him following the incident, they (the broadcasters, Hobbs included I believe) even ripped into him further...again...rightly so. They were quite turned off by his arrogant attitude, (in an interview after he got out of the car), as he actually denied it happening at all. Not sure what planet he was on during that lap.

No, I don't necessarily judge a driver by one mistake, but at least be a man enough to own up to your mistake. Rollcentre was having a very good race up to that point, and Martin hit very hard a couple laps later, (a frightening hit actually), after his suspension broke as a result of the hit.

It was obvious he was in the wrong at Le Mans.

I do not agree; you have to look at the tapes; see all the angles.
I've heard from MANY VERY credible sourses he wasn't in the wrong.

JMO, dude.

F3lollipops · 9 Jul 2004, 09:19 (Ref:1031074)

I'm not going to join in with the 'who is better' debate other than to say that they are VERY different people but but both quite wonderful in their own ways. Neither am I going to join in with the Bourdais bashing that seems to have overtaken the thread

What I am going to do is point out that Sebastien's name has been incorrectly spelled by all who have used it and ask why it is that, in America, no European driver is ever called by his full given name. I have never before heard anyone call Sebastien by the (horrendous) shortened version of his name and I am sure that his Mother shudders every time she hears it because I know that I do

Fogelhund · 9 Jul 2004, 10:17 (Ref:1031116)

Actually, that was TWO incidents Bourdais was very clearly at fault for at LM.

He took out a Courage, which in turn hammered the Fellows Vette, and then later on took out the Dallara.

He was in the wrong, there is no question about it, with both incidents, and to boot was an idiot afterwards.

Kicking-back · 9 Jul 2004, 11:15 (Ref:1031173)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mags
I don't believe he did it on purpose; if he did it at all.

Talk to Martin Short

JohnSSC · 9 Jul 2004, 12:09 (Ref:1031224)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mags
You are asking the wrong person! I adore him! I always got a hug and kiss everytime I saw him. He was HOUNDED there!! Hometown boy, and he was grace under pressure. A wonderful young man. I can't say enough good things about Seb. He had a little "fan" club in the village, too. He was brilliant!!

Pardon me for asking, but is this really something that would instill confidence in "journalistic impartiality?" If you are saying that you are reporting an event then it would seem one must do so objectively.

The preponderence of reports/comments here were made based on direct observation. The conclusions are being refuted, apparently, based on the above comment.

Again, I am not in any sense attacking the poster but trying to clarify the position of the poster based on the poster stating they are indeed a journalist but apparently allowing the personal relationship to bias the reporting.

Brian W Keske · 9 Jul 2004, 12:20 (Ref:1031237)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mags
I do not agree; you have to look at the tapes; see all the angles.
I've heard from MANY VERY credible sourses he wasn't in the wrong.

JMO, dude.

I have to ask....if you saw the tape, did you listen to the commentary?

If so, then you are obviously aligned with SB's planet to think this didn't happen. It is so obvious it is silly to deny it.

I'm done with this, but I agree with the above poster....how can you be objective when over shadowed by the hugs you recieve from this person on race weekends? I would hug you too if you bought my 'I didn't do it' story.

jjspierx · 9 Jul 2004, 15:59 (Ref:1031470)

Ok, this has gone far enough. This thread is dangerously close to be closed. More talk of Sebastien's incident(s) at LeMans will not be tolerated on this thread in this forum. If you'd like this thread to continue, then we need to start talking about Sebastien vs. Juan Pablo.

f1manoz · 9 Jul 2004, 16:24 (Ref:1031504)

JPM is racing in Formula One at the moment.

Sebastian is not... yet!

It's obvious both are talented, fast drivers as both have won races in the series. Winning in ChampCar, at any time, is not easy.

Mags · 9 Jul 2004, 16:30 (Ref:1031510)

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnSSC
Pardon me for asking, but is this really something that would instill confidence in "journalistic impartiality?" If you are saying that you are reporting an event then it would seem one must do so objectively.

The preponderence of reports/comments here were made based on direct observation. The conclusions are being refuted, apparently, based on the above comment.

Again, I am not in any sense attacking the poster but trying to clarify the position of the poster based on the poster stating they are indeed a journalist but apparently allowing the personal relationship to bias the reporting.

If half way around the world you can't see a friendly face and get a smile, what's wrong with that? he's a KID. And a very good driver.

The way everyone is talking about this incident, they are saying he deliberatly took Martin out and I am saying I do not belive he did it on purpose.

THAT is what I am saying. I've never seen Seb do a Paul Tracy type move before racing.

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