Williams & Toyota DQ'd

[Led ZeppF1]

Sam Michael is "a sloppy" Tech Director.

I don't se Patrick Head in paddock. Would this have been allowed to happen with him being around.:confused:

[freud]

Hmm, interesting point, Led Zepp. As this is the first time for Sam, imho, we should give him the benefit of doubt. Though FW and PH will not be too happy with their technical director. Also, dont forget that Toyota also got similar punishment. May be it was a genuine error.

I actually enjoyed watching Ralf during the weekend. His pole lap was flawless and he drove well during the race. I thought he deserved the podium. Also, this is a big blow for williams and Montoya as well before the USGP, which is just days away. I am afraid that with williams down, Ferrari will give another one-two at indianapolis and virtually NAIL the season.

[ralf fan]

NO NO NO!!!

you RS finally drove welll.... and he gets nothing!!

[naughtymutt]

Surely the ducts have been seen by a scrutineer at some point on the weekend.

[z2252314]

Why am I not suprised..... Williams were nowhere the last few races and suddenly there able to match it with Ferrari????

Two teams run illegal brake ducts on a circuit which is renowned for being hard on brakes and its just an honest oversight???

No performance gain???? PAAALLEAASEE!! the extra cooling may not directly make the car go faster but by keeping the brakes cooler the drivers are allowed to brake harder for a much longer period giving them a very clear implicit performance advantage!!!! By the way, if there was no performance advantage, then this would be clear grounds for appeal. Surely if Sam felt confident that there was no performance advantage, then he would have at least tried to appeal the penalty.


Jo Bauer's report states that "The air ducts of car numbers 03, 04, 16 and 17 have been found
not to be in compliance with Article 11.4 of the 2004 Formula One Technical Regulations.

Article 11.4 of the 2004 tech regulations states:

11.4 Air ducts :
Air ducts for the purpose of cooling the front and rear brakes shall not protrude beyond :
- a plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm above the horizontal centre line of the wheel ;
- a plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm below the horizontal centre line of the wheel ;
- a vertical plane parallel to the inner face of the wheel rim and displaced from it by 120mm toward the centre line of the car.
Furthermore, when viewed from the side the ducts must not protrude forwards beyond the periphery of the tyre or backwards beyond the wheel rim.

Now in their statement to the press, the FIA said the brake ducts on these cars - both Williams and Toyota "did not comply with the dimensional requirements."

This just doesnt make sense!!! The air duct rules do not change from race to race, so if Williams and Toyota were able to understand and comply with the regulations for the first 7 races, how come they were suddenly confused by the regulation in the 8th race???

Isn't it weird that not one, but TWO teams make an "honest" mistake regarding the brake air ducts on a circuit where braking, and conservation of brakes, is critical to success????

I expect this from a team like Toyota, but I've lost a lot of respect for Williams today.

[climb]

doh, I'm hust happy for Fisi

[Gt_R]

To a certain extent, i agree with you zz.

Williams were troubled with brake problems in Friday practice, and perform pretty average in the previous couple of races...but the sudden turn in form in qualifyings, and more importantly the race, is very interesting.

I watched the race again, and both Williams were pushing very hard even towards the end of the race...JPM in particular were pushing the braking of his Williams to the absolute limit (and beyond sometimes) at quite a few corners yet it doesn't seem to cause much problem to the brakes over the course of the race esp in pursuit of Button. Ralf too managed to keep pushing the car and braking hard consistently throughout the race without much problem...and all this despite the Williams having to brake from the highest speed of 340+kmh.

Frankly, what i'm surprised is that Williams would resort to such a trick. Is it the mischieve of a few over-ambitious black sheep? I'd be surprised if Sam/Head knew about this beforehand. It's too coincidental 2 teams make the same "mistake" on the brake ducts on a circuit known to be very demanding on brakes.

I don't know why..but i'm not too shocked about hearing Toyota's involved though

Anyway, this incident once again showed that FIA are not doing nothing when inspecting the cars...they are serious in their checks and any irregularities promptly spotted. It's a boost to FIA's credibility in enforcing regulations, though unfortunately, at the expense of the credibility of the 2 teams involved.

The willingness to accept disqualification without appeal (esp for big brand names like BMW and Toyota) is quite telling.

[Sirio]

FYI
Steel brakes could and have been used in a modern F1 car. Williams used steel brake discs in practise for the 1999 Austrian Grand Prix.

The laws about brake ducts are also related to downforce as it is possible to generate downforce from them so you could create some strange ducts that are another wing if the regulations were too open.
I understand that the teams spend alot of time on the lift/drag ratio as well as the cooling performance of the brake ducts.

[Led ZeppF1]

Originally posted by freud
May be it was a genuine error.

Well, I don't believe Sam when he says it was a mistake, because too much of a coincidence.

New Technical Director, Williams had brake problems at Barcelona and something was done to fix it.

[Super Tourer]

Bet it's gone down really well at BMW.....

[climb]

Surely I can't believe them when they say:
1)It was unvoluntarily done: the assembling of a car is not done adding random parts together
2) It didn't carry any advantage: apart from the strange coincidence that, right in this race, both FW and Toyota set their best results of the year, if this manoeuvre wasn't aimed at having better performaces, why making it? why risking a penalty?

[GTRMagic]

I am reasonably sure Mr Michael didnt bring his autoclave with him circuit side and make those brake ducts in the back of the trailer....

So the work had to be done back at Williams' factory... the Technical guru in charge just happens to be Mr P.Head...

A shame they were scrubbed, but when cars are illegal, its illegal, no questions asked... unless you are painted red, and have bargeboards that are... oops never mind

[Led ZeppF1]

Climb, generally I agree with you. But, its not Williams best results of the year. JPM finish second in Malaysian GP, also in Bahrain if have no gearbox problem.

[BootsOntheSide]

Maybe just deducting the Constructors points would've been a more apt punishment? And how come it wasn't picked up on Saturday night in Parc Ferme - preventing disqualifications like this was one of the main reasons for the rule. Brake problems are a natural outcome here this year - would the FIA have preferred to have a Toyota or Williams man in a hospital bed next to Massa?

[z2252314]

Originally posted by GTRMagic
I am reasonably sure Mr Michael didnt bring his autoclave with him circuit side and make those brake ducts in the back of the trailer....

So the work had to be done back at Williams' factory... the Technical guru in charge just happens to be Mr P.Head...

Agreed, though as Technical Director I would expect him to be aware of any design changes to the braking ducts and whether or not they complied with the regulations.

[z2252314]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Brake problems are a natural outcome here this year - would the FIA have preferred to have a Toyota or Williams man in a hospital bed next to Massa?

What a ludicrous statement!!!! There is nothing in the current regulations that make driving an F1 car overtly dangerous. If drivers decided to brake 50m earlier then there would be no great threat of brake failure even at Canada. But such is the natural competition in F1 that teams and drivers are compelled to go to the extreme limits. If Williams felt their drivers were in danger from brake failure, then they should have knocked some speed off.

The rules are the same for everyone. If teams like Minardi are able to survive the whole race without brake failure, then why cant teams like Williams and Toyota.

Any brake failures, or any failures for that matter, are not a result of any of the FIA regulations but rather engineering failures which the teams must be held responsible for.

[GTRMagic]

Are there any team punishments for presenting an illegal car? Other than losing points of course, does the entrants licence get a nasty squiggle put on it...

... or perhaps a huge fine???

[Spritle]

At least Ralf will have some continuity if he goes to Toyota next season...

...he'd have been DQ'd on either his present or future team.

[RapidTron]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Maybe just deducting the Constructors points would've been a more apt punishment? And how come it wasn't picked up on Saturday night in Parc Ferme - preventing disqualifications like this was one of the main reasons for the rule. Brake problems are a natural outcome here this year - would the FIA have preferred to have a Toyota or Williams man in a hospital bed next to Massa?

those cars wouldnt have been allowed start the race had they found it after qualifying. you cant blame the fia for the brake problems, because 8 other teams managed to deal with it without breaking the rules, including massas car which crashed due to a suspension failure, not brakes.

[Kicking-back]

It was most likely a genuine error.

These things happen in motor-racing from time to time.

It's happened in the past and will, no doubt, happen again.

No need for mass hysteria!

[00 XR8]

Originally posted by z2252314
Agreed, though as Technical Director I would expect him to be aware of any design changes to the braking ducts and whether or not they complied with the regulations.

So the bloke who has been Technical Director for all of 7 days is meant to jump up and down when told about these "design changes" and say that he will have no part in a team willing to "bend" the rules? A good way to lose your job that one

[z2252314]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
It was most likely a genuine error.

So not one, but two teams make a genuine error on the exact same part critical for success at Canada.

Also, if there was no performance advantage, why would TWO teams feel compelled to push the envelope on this aspect of the car.

It would be one heck of a coincedence for two teams to make the exact same infringement unless there was performance to be gained.

[Kicking-back]

It may be they didn't realise it was outside the rules.

These things can be very marginal.

There would have been no point in knowingly breaking the rules - as disqualification would've been inevitable.

[1200Datto27]

These teams have guys whos job is to read and interprest the rules. I would hazard a guess that they both tried to push the "allowable engineering tolerences" to their maximums and got caught out. Probably find that individually, the pieces that make up the ductwork are legal, but combined together are outside the tolerences allowed.

[QuickSilver]

I feel bad for Ralf on this one. He finally puts in a good race and it's all for nothing.

Happy for Button though. (and watching Button drive is like wearing my wife's silk underwear ... mmmmmm).