FIA's twisted logic?

[Ralf's Girl]

This is what I saw today:

START OF RACE: TGF (do as I say, not as I do - right Michael?) pushes Ralf over to within half a metre of the pitwall but of course this has been established as being within the rules after the hurrah over it last year.

FIRST PITSTOPS: Ralf crosses the white line on to the racing line and receives a penalty (and there is a rumour that Ferrari went to the race stewards to tell them about Ralf's mistake) despite not putting anybody at risk.

I fail to see why chopping across someone at the start and putting them, other drivers and people on the pitwall at risk is okay but crossing a white line when there is no-one coming is not. Of course one is in a race situation but surely a slice across another driver's nosecone at the start is more dangerous than crossing a white line on to a clear track?

It seems that the FIA's logic on these rules is very convoluted.

[Gt_R]

The rule stated that the cars are not to cross the line when exiting the pits in a race no matter if there is anyone on track...they did not say that cars can cross the line UNLESS somebody quicker is coming down the straights.
You break the rule, you get punished... sadly~...its squarely Ralf's mistake, and as much as it is too harsh...he has to live with it.

And i think today MS wasnt that bad at the start...he did not chop across...in fact...he went straight ahead at the start...see Ralf is quicker, and put a squeeze on Ralf...leaving him the option of "compromise or take us out".

[R]

Well, this doesn't happen often , but for once, I completely agree with Gt_R!

[Ralf's Girl]

TGF didn't chop across? I'd say the footage from Montoya's on-board camera proves pretty conclusively that he very much chopped across the front of Ralf's car. It's an incredibly dangerous thing to do. If Ralf had been as stupid as TGF, and had chosen not to back off he would have been in the pitwall and...well, we've all seen the damage that flying wheels can do.

What I don't understand is why cutting across an empty track is against the rules and chopping across another driver (a potentially life-threatening situation) is not.

[R]

So you're saying that TGF knowingly did something that could have endangered the life of his brother and best friend?

[Liz]

Yes he did. Just as he intentionally rammed Jacques off the track, putting both their lives at risk, as he now has admitted, because getting the win is more important than the lives of competitors.

And he also made precisely the same "error" coming out of the pits as Ralf did, and guess who got punished and who did not?

And is this a coincidence that just as TGF was beginning to crack under the pressure from his brother, not to mention Williams No. 2 lurking in the background, that suddenly a penalty was manufactured to get the pressure off him?

Oh, yes, of course. These things are ALWAYS coincidence when TGF does them, aren't they? Because he is the world's best driver and he doesn't need to cheat to win.

When the "move of the race" according to Speedvision is Ralf getting screwed by the race stewards, I am not the only one who noticed something rotten in the state of Germany.

I will say no more.

[R]

I think the start move is all part of racing. And if you look at the replay, TGF didn't cross the line coming out of the pits, he just hit it. Ralf had half his car over it.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally posted by R
So you're saying that TGF knowingly did something that could have endangered the life of his brother and best friend?

I can't add much to what Liz has said, except that it wasn't so much Ralf who was in danger as people on the pitwall. A flying wheel can easily enough escape and hit someone and we have seen it happen before in the most freak circumstances.

[R]

Just one more comment, which I think is appropriate in the circumstances.

I think most regular posters here are aware of the fact that I am no fan of TGF. Far from it, and I would have loved to see a Williams win today.

I just don't see any injustice having been done by the stewards today.

[Sodemo]

I once saw an entire Formula Ford suspension arm with wheel attached, vault Paddock bend (after an accident), demoilish a fence and land in the paddock area at brands.

[neutral]

Liz is starting her "FIA loves michael" conspiracy theories again.
If you watch the footage through objective lenses, you will notice that michael, like DC,rubens,heidfield etc hit the line while Ralf crossed the line. This is indeed a harsh penalty, but it had to be called. The rules cant be at the stewards discretion. They have to be defined to ensure proper enforcement. As to the start, exactly as GtR so rightfully put. He did not chop from the start, he squeezed. Michael, as leader has the right to choose the line into the corner. Obviously his choice will be the one which gives him the best chance of entering the corner in P1. Remember, Michael cannot weave, and that he did not do. If Ralf wanted to overtake, then he must choose the line which Michael gives him.

[EERO]

Liz, well said.

To my eyes, it looked like MS crossed the line as well, albeit a little closer to its termination. But the point is, if BOTH drivers crossed the line, (and having watched it a number of times now, I am sure they both did) they BOTH should be assessed the SAME penalty.

As for chopping at the start-I don't approve, but if TGF has convinced the FIA that its kosher, who am I to criticize?

[Tristan]

1) TGF at the start did NOTHING wrong! THAT'S RACING!! What do you want them to do off the start, carry on in a straight line before neatly filing into line for the first coner?? That's called DICING and FIGHTING, somehting everyone harps on about how little we have of in F1.

2) Ralf crossed the line, his fault. Should be punished. But a stop go?? A little harsh, don't you think.

3) I've seen the replay and, whilst he didn't go QUITE as wide as Ralfie, TGF did indeed cross the line with his two left wheels. What in the name of god is going in Charlie Whiting's head????

Those are my thoughts.

[EERO]

Originally posted by Tristan
1) TGF at the start did NOTHING wrong! THAT'S RACING!! What do you want them to do off the start, carry on in a straight line before neatly filing into line for the first coner?? That's called DICING and FIGHTING, somehting everyone harps on about how little we have of in F1.

2) Ralf crossed the line, his fault. Should be punished. But a stop go?? A little harsh, don't you think.

3) I've seen the replay and, whilst he didn't go QUITE as wide as Ralfie, TGF did indeed cross the line with his two left wheels. What in the name of god is going in Charlie Whiting's head????

Those are my thoughts.

Tristan, as for the first point, yes its racing, but lets suppose that the two lead cars touch, and one gets vaulted into the pit wall as the rest of the field accelerates into the crash....its not a pretty thought, and if the cars weren't so damned "safe", TGF would be punished. Its beyond "racing", its foolishness consider the magnitude of the risks at the start of a Grand Prix.

On Point #2, rules are rules, you break them, you pay the price.
Point #3, see point #2.

[Bononi]

From ITV-F1.com
Ralf Schumacher had a furious row with brother Michael after the pair came within inches of clashing at the start of the European Grand Prix.

The Williams man, who is 26 next week, confronted his brother in a garage after the race. He was angry that the world champion chopped across him at the start to defend his position, forcing him to stand on the brakes to avoid going into the wall.

Ralf refused to discuss the matter with journalists but David Coulthard witnessed the bust-up. The Scot refused to get involved in the argument.

He said: "It was nice to see Ralf having a chat with him after the race and he was clearly not happy but Michael wouldn’t have been happy if it went the other way."

Ralfie doesn't think this way...

[R]

I've certainly never seen Ralf look so grumpy as he did in parc ferme today, and I saw that he was having words with his brother as they were in the garage being weighed. I assumed at the time that they were discussing the stop and go penalty, and possibly why TGF wasn't punished as well (TGF certainly mentioned in the press conference that he felt sorry for Ralf receiving that penalty). It looks like their conversation in the garage may have been a little more serious after all...

[Ralf's Girl]

I can't say I blame Ralf for being angry - what TGF did was foolish and dangerous. He's clearly not going to stop doing that until he has concrete proof that it's dangerous...concrete proof apparently being someone being killed by his stupid driving.

[JeremySmith]

Very eloquently put..Neutral

Michael did not chop in front of anyone at the start. It is his call being in P1 to choose his racing line..Motor racing is a very dangerous sport, for anyone here to suggest that Michael Schumacher would knowingly endanger his younger brothers life is preposterous..

[Bononi]

Oh yes... So everyone must wait for TGF make his move... that's very simple...

I'm learning everyday about this motorsport...

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Jersound
Very eloquently put..Neutral

Michael did not chop in front of anyone at the start. It is his call being in P1 to choose his racing line..Motor racing is a very dangerous sport, for anyone here to suggest that Michael Schumacher would knowingly endanger his younger brothers life is preposterous..

Ralf keeps tight-lipped about brotherly tiff

Schuey Jr disappointed with fourth place on home turf


Ralf Schumacher dodged questions about a possible
bust-up with brother Michael in the wake of the
European Grand Prix, but says he is extremely
disappointed about the outcome of Sunday's race.

Schumacher Jr finished fourth at the Nurburgring
while Michael took his fifth win of the season. Ralf is
thought to have been angered by the way his elder
brother cut in front of him at the start of the race,
forcing him towards the pit wall on the run to the
first corner.

David Coulthard, who finished third, backed the
younger Schumacher saying his brother’s actions were not right - but they were
legal.

Well, I personally thought TGF's move was rather dangerous. Furthermore, TGF not crossed the line exiting the pits, he crossed the hatched area coming into the pits.

However, as posted elsewhere, I predict no further comment from either the FIA nor the Stewards.
I did notice that Patrick's head was black.

[mjstallard]

Please excuse me if my memory fails me (I am knackered), but didn't TGF move back onto the racing line after pushing Ralfie so wide? I can't find any MPEGs yet, and I missed the ITV highlights. One change of direction is allowed isn't it? Hmm, I don't want to get drawn into an argument, so I may well leave my posts on this subject at that..:confused:

However, I do wonder what would have happened if a more aggressive, less mature driver were in Ralfie's position...

[Valve Bounce]

BTW, can anyone remember who killed that Italian guy Remus? I think his brother Romulus had something to do with it.

[Bononi]

oh Valve... and is there anything about a wolf ? A female wolf ?

And after all that became an empire right ?

Uhn... there's no brotherhood in the powers that be...

[Wrex]

OK - 2 things - The start and the penalty:

The "Chopping"

Originally posted by Jersound
Michael did not chop in front of anyone at the start. It is his call being in P1 to choose his racing line..Motor racing is a very dangerous sport, for anyone here to suggest that Michael Schumacher would knowingly endanger his younger brothers life is preposterous..

Originally posted by Tristan
1) TGF at the start did NOTHING wrong! THAT'S RACING!! What do you want them to do off the start, carry on in a straight line before neatly filing into line for the first coner?? That's called DICING and FIGHTING, somehting everyone harps on about how little we have of in F1.

Absolutely. It is ridiculous for anyone to say that Michael (no matter what you think of him) would deliberately endanger the life of his brother. Some of you have you judgement very clouded.

The "Penalty"

Originally posted by Tristan
2) Ralf crossed the line, his fault. Should be punished. But a stop go?? A little harsh, don't you think.

Yes, as much as I hate it when it applies to a driver I like, the rules are the rules. But yes - Very Harsh indeed

Originally posted by Tristan
3) I've seen the replay and, whilst he didn't go QUITE as wide as Ralfie, TGF did indeed cross the line with his two left wheels.

I disagree, his wheels touched the line but did not cross. Now we are splitting hairs here, but what ever the rules say (touching or crossing) is what should be applied. And if TGF is guilty, then Montoya should have been penalised as well as he ventured even further across than Michael - Hmmm, a DC win?

Originally posted by R
I think most regular posters here are aware of the fact that I am no fan of TGF. Far from it, and I would have loved to see a Williams win today.

I just don't see any injustice having been done by the stewards today.

In the above respect - I agree, as much as I wished a win for Ralf, the rules are clear.

However, even being a Schumacher fan (both) as eatapc points out in another thread, the rules are clear on pit exit and Pit ENTRY and Michael clearly and convincingly breached those "Pit entry" rules today. As much as it pains me, Todays win belongs to Montoya with DC second.

[Porsche_1]

I find it repugnant that people would even suggest that MS would kill his own brother for a win!! And again the JV incident is brought up. Boy we haven’t herd this one before have we!!!!

Again the same issue is covered by the group. It happens, you have seen it before, you will see it again, it has been given the OK by the FIA, and it has been done by other drivers. I do not see why you are all so surprised after it happens. Get over it!!!!!!