[BTCC] Oulton Park Rd7/8/9

[RS67]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But Moffat changed just once. I think you are no longer eligible for points if you change again

Team Hard haven't changed any of their cars since the start of the season though.

[S griffin]

It depends if they would rather keep with the VW.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It depends if they would rather keep with the VW.

The driver's would be better off running round the track...

Honestly, if HARD want to be taken seriously, they've got to build up a new car. Don't think there are enough lying around unused that would be competitive or eligible in the long-term.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It depends if they would rather keep with the VW.

Can't find the quote offhand but I believe Gilham has previously said that they will be keeping the VWs for another year or so, then look at a replacement when the 2022 hybrid rules come in.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Can't find the quote offhand but I believe Gilham has previously said that they will be keeping the VWs for another year or so, then look at a replacement when the 2022 hybrid rules come in.

Shame. They're already a year or two overdue a replacement!

[billy bleach]

Drag out the Insignias they must be virtually new

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Evantra

The driver's would be better off running round the track...

Honestly, if HARD want to be taken seriously, they've got to build up a new car. Don't think there are enough lying around unused that would be competitive or eligible in the long-term.

They could get another couple of seasons out of the old Focus.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by RS67

They could get another couple of seasons out of the old Focus.

Actually I forgot about them, Would be a much better option than the VWs at least.

Or since the Infiniti is now a championship contender after a 4 year hiatus, why don't we patch together the old Protons! 😂

[porsche962fan]

irony would be Hamilton back in the car he drove the previous year

[S griffin]

I haven’t heard anything about them wanting a new car for Nic, so this is all just speculation

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

irony would be Hamilton back in the car he drove the previous year

Why would he do that? Remember he has moved to a" very professional team"...

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Actually I forgot about them, Would be a much better option than the VWs at least.

Or since the Infiniti is now a championship contender after a 4 year hiatus, why don't we patch together the old Protons! 😂

There was only one Proton left; one was scrapped after severe damage where it was hit in the side. That nobody was badly hurt in that accident is a fine tribute to the safety cages and indeed the safety standards overall.

The CCs are not that bad. I genuinely reckon with a top driver and engineer they could be top 5 at most tracks (Knockhill, Croft being the definitely nots). JP and Turks flew back in the day; old doesn't equal slow.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

The CCs are not that bad. I genuinely reckon with a top driver and engineer they could be top 5 at most tracks (Knockhill, Croft being the definitely nots). JP and Turks flew back in the day; old doesn't equal slow.

Agreed - I'm not sure why there seems to be an insistence that an older model must be slower.

Jelley's BMW is 7 years old.
The oldest Motorbase car was 6 years old last season.
The FK2s are 8 years old.
Morgan's car is 5 years old.

All of these cars are accepted / expected to be quick, but Goff's 5 year old CC will automatically be slow because of it's age?

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Agreed - I'm not sure why there seems to be an insistence that an older model must be slower.

Well yes, they are. Hence why they built new Infinitis, Fords to better suit them to the new suspension parts etc. Also with some of the drivers those CCs have had, they've seen a lot of accident damage over the years.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

There was only one Proton left; one was scrapped after severe damage where it was hit in the side.

Yep, that's why I said "patch together" !

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Well yes, they are. Hence why they built new Infinitis, Fords to better suit them to the new suspension parts etc. Also with some of the drivers those CCs have had, they've seen a lot of accident damage over the years.

I can understand metal fatigue being a factor in a physically older chassis.
But the 125is and FK2s on the grid are at least as old as the CC in terms of design.
BMR/Laser may have built new Q50s, but they too are still based on the model that has been around for some years now. If the CCs are struggling because of physical age - what would make a new-build CC slow?

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Agreed - I'm not sure why there seems to be an insistence that an older model must be slower.

Jelley's BMW is 7 years old.
The oldest Motorbase car was 6 years old last season.
The FK2s are 8 years old.
Morgan's car is 5 years old.

All of these cars are accepted / expected to be quick, but Goff's 5 year old CC will automatically be slow because of it's age?

I guess it is how much development and re-engineering can go into a chassis for it to remain competitive. The 2018 Motorbase Focus was on the pace, yet last year seemed to have fallen off a cliff in terms of it's performance compared to other cars.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I can understand metal fatigue being a factor in a physically older chassis.
But the 125is and FK2s on the grid are at least as old as the CC in terms of design.
BMR/Laser may have built new Q50s, but they too are still based on the model that has been around for some years now. If the CCs are struggling because of physical age - what would make a new-build CC slow?

The Infiniti's are pretty much brand new cars - re-engineered by a bunch of people who know what they are doing this time.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I can understand metal fatigue being a factor in a physically older chassis.
But the 125is and FK2s on the grid are at least as old as the CC in terms of design.
BMR/Laser may have built new Q50s, but they too are still based on the model that has been around for some years now. If the CCs are struggling because of physical age - what would make a new-build CC slow?

Car manufacturers are constantly evolving and improving a car chassis. What makes a great handling car one year, can be improved upon 5yrs later when the new model comes out, sometimes it just looks to be a facelift model. The Moffia rebuilt the original Infinitis as they saw a potential in the car yet untapped, but along with BMR felt new builds would release more potential, they may well make more changes for next season, but their comes a point when all the changes that can be made have been exploited and the car is no longer competitive against newer cars with better base chassis to start with.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

The Infiniti's are pretty much brand new cars - re-engineered by a bunch of people who know what they are doing this time.

Originally Posted by RS67

Car manufacturers are constantly evolving and improving a car chassis. [...] their comes a point when all the changes that can be made have been exploited and the car is no longer competitive against newer cars with better base chassis to start with.

So from what you both are saying - the right engineers could build a competitive VW CC in 2021.

I also don't buy too much into the 'better base chassis' for a NGTC build.
The only significant items retained from the road car are the bodyshell and wheelbase length. It makes no difference to an NGTC build what developments are made to the road car model.

Chassis NGTC-12-005 has been a Civic FK hatchback, a Civic FK Tourer and a Civic FK2 Type-R.
Chassis MBP-004-2014 has been a Focus ST and a Focus RS.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Well yes, they are. Hence why they built new Infinitis, Fords to better suit them to the new suspension parts etc. Also with some of the drivers those CCs have had, they've seen a lot of accident damage over the years.

They didn't build new Infinitis because the existing ones were too old and worn out. In terms of mileage, both cars had only one season of use. The new builds were to correct some of the problems with the original build. Not necessarily because there have been several years of development but because the original design was never that great from day one.

In some way the age of an NGTC car and thoughts of metal fatigue are a bit irrelevant. Most cars will reshelled at some point, often multiple times over the years. The shell itself provides very little to the structural integrity of the car.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

They didn't build new Infinitis because the existing ones were too old and worn out. In terms of mileage, both cars had only one season of use. The new builds were to correct some of the problems with the original build. Not necessarily because there have been several years of development but because the original design was never that great from day one.

This is what I was thinking - and has been alluded to by Sutton on a few occasions. The new build Q50s allowed some different understanding or philosophy to by put into the transformation from road car to NGTC. They have also talked about changes they wanted to make to the A-Class, but were prevented from doing so by Ciceley.

Which makes me ask why the same could not be achieved with a new build VW CC? What about the VW CC road car means that it could not be as successful as a 2020 build i30 or Q50 in NGTC form?

[RS67]

Originally Posted by redshoes

The shell itself provides very little to the structural integrity of the car.

Did you actually manage to keep a straight face whilst writing that, or do you truly believe it.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So from what you both are saying - the right engineers could build a competitive VW CC in 2021.

I also don't buy too much into the 'better base chassis' for a NGTC build.
The only significant items retained from the road car are the bodyshell and wheelbase length. It makes no difference to an NGTC build what developments are made to the road car model.

Chassis NGTC-12-005 has been a Civic FK hatchback, a Civic FK Tourer and a Civic FK2 Type-R.
Chassis MBP-004-2014 has been a Focus ST and a Focus RS.

Road car bodyshells/chassis get developed and stiffened. They can also be made lighter at the same time.

As far as the Focus is concerned, agreat deal of metalwork was replaced when Motorbase rebuilt their ST's as RS's, it was far more than simple cosmetic panel changes.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So from what you both are saying - the right engineers could build a competitive VW CC in 2021.

I also don't buy too much into the 'better base chassis' for a NGTC build.
The only significant items retained from the road car are the bodyshell and wheelbase length. It makes no difference to an NGTC build what developments are made to the road car model.

Chassis NGTC-12-005 has been a Civic FK hatchback, a Civic FK Tourer and a Civic FK2 Type-R.
Chassis MBP-004-2014 has been a Focus ST and a Focus RS.

Wheel base, width, height, slippery-ness, shape of rear end (for rear wing effectiveness). Those things don't really change from an ST to an RS but are very different from the A-Class to the CC.