[LM24 Race] Allan McNish's Crash

[Gilles lives!]

That slow motion video misses the entry to the corner, McNish is already hard on the brakes and out of control trying to avoid the Ferrari, who's incumbent was oblivious to the Audi's presence. This WAS just as the RLM guys said, the wrong place to catch a slower car when on a hot lap. Allan had no choice but to jump on the brakes to avoid a collision and that he managed to do with relatively light damage compared to Dumas/Gene.

If I was the Audi team manager that allowed them to race for the win, then I would have expected nothing less from McNish, as he is one of the few drivers in the world who could have pulled it off, his team mates are well aware of that too.

[amidst tundra]

Originally Posted by vincegail

The fact that McNish apologized for the crash is enough evidence: he's the guilty one. He thus was the reason for not winning this year. He has had many of these crashes over the years and a few seconds gained in some all balls out manoeuvre in the beginning of the race doesn't weigh up to crashing out while in the lead near the end.

He should be sacked.

That's ridiculous logic. At some point in our lives we all say sorry for an accident that would have been avoided if both parties had been more careful. McNish was 50% of the incident, the Ferrari driver the other 50%. Sometimes you feel responsible without being solely responsible, that seems to be the deal with this scenario.

[Tim the Grey]

I have a picture taken at the start of the Porsche Curves, JUST before the contact/accident. It looks like Alan would expect to scythe up the Ferrari's left side, as protos did on just about every lap I was there...

[chernaudi]

And that's the issue with driver expectations--you get into the habit of doing something that seems to work, but it's still a risk and you can roll snake eyes because of a misunderstanding between two drivers, which is what seemed to happen here.

Last year, Allan admitted to making passes similar to the one he made on Beltoise numerous times that weekend, as had other drivers. Problem is that Beltoise didn't see McNish and started to turn down slightly (at least in the ever-popular replay that's been shown a billion times), on the normal racing line. Allan didn't expect that, and Beltoise didn't expect to see Allan there. Yes, it was too early perhaps to be racing, but it worked before, so you expect it to work again...as I posed in the BHF/BHH thread, there are no 100% absolutes in racing, and Allan rolled snake eyes there.

Here, we had Audi drivers getting into dodgy moves in traffic, mostly the #2 when Allan or TK were on board, and if anything Tom had more mistakes/issues. In post #69 in the Ant Davidson vs... thread, it shows where Tom nearly ran the Krhon Ferrari off the road near Arnage, and I believe he also spun a Porsche 911 at Mulsanne.

But Allan and Tom were making those moves because Dr. Ullrich doesn't believe in team orders and seems to believe that as long as two cars are on the lead lap, they should be allowed to race each other provided that they don't take excessive risks, let alone take each other out. At LM, every second counts, as we saw last year. The winning Audi had to have found those 13 seconds it won by somewhere.

When you're racing, and pushing as hard as you can, you're on the razor's edge, which is a perilous place to be, and 99+% of the time these guys get it right, often in spectacular fashion. But there's that very small percentage of the time that even the very best get it wrong, again often in spectacular fashion. I wouldn't expect Allan, Tom, or Dindo to just cruse behind Andre, Ben and Marcel if they had a shot to win.

Based on the info I've read here, Allan tried to make a move that he and others made without issues several times in that race, and the Ferrari driver was confused by what Allan's exact intentions were, and by the time that both parties figured it out, it was too late for Allan. He went for it and rolled snake eyes again. It seems like a miscommunication between Allan and the Ferrari driver, which is a racing accident, and happens all the time in racing.

Fassler spun his Audi while leading and bumped the wall in the Porsche Curves, we aren't hearing about Marcel's head being on the chopping block as far as his employment with Audi. Tom had quite a few dodgy moments on Sunday Morning, and he's been involved in as many, if not more, incidents than McNish has been, but we don't hear about rumors of him being fired or forced into early retirement. Even Tréluyer spun at pit in when he locked up the brakes on his R18 trying to slow down to the pit speed limit, but we're not hearing about Ben being crucified for that one small error, which was the only time he put a foot wrong the whole race and was a very minor error that wasn't very costly in the end.

These guys are human, and when at the limit, they are dancing a fine line, and in racing, often times in such situations, the British Army SAS' motto of "he who dares wins" is often true. But as I've said, there's no absolutes in racing, only the odds, and no matter how much the odds may be in your favor, nothing can be taken for granted, as Allan's incidents have shown.

[Lasse]

Really good post chernaudi!

Regarding Fässler's incident, did you watch it live? If so you saw the cameras in the pit focus on Dr. Ullrich...he was not impressed. Fässler was very lucky not to damage the car severely, had it required repairs that would have lost them a lap to the #2, this thread would properly be about Fässler.

While Mcnish this and last year was pushing hard through traffic, Fässler lost the car singlehanded. Not a misunderstanding while overtaking a GT car, it was a simple driving error while holding on too a healthy lead. That is just not good enough for a works team like Audi. Had he been pushing to defend the lead it would have been understandable, but he was well ahead at that time.

IMO two very different accidents.

[chernaudi]

@ Lasse: I saw the onboard from Fassler's spin, and I'm kinda confused as to what happened there. I know that he spun while alone, but there had to be some reason--pushing too hard, getting off line, or even hitting a bump the wrong way. That car was already out of shape when the onboard footage from the replay started. If he wasn't pushing hard he might have cracked a bump the wrong way or clipped a curb too hard.

That is sort of a double edged sword about pushing hard--when you have a healthy lead, your mind might wander more than if you were fighting for position. I wonder if that's what happened to Fassler or if he saw something in that corner he tried to avoid for some reason, because that Audi was already quite a bit off line when the replay started, like he had hit a bump or curve, or he went wide to avoid something he saw. Again like with McNish, I wonder if we had more footage we could figure out what happened.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And that's the issue with driver expectations--you get into the habit of doing something that seems to work, but it's still a risk and you can roll snake eyes because of a misunderstanding between two drivers, which is what seemed to happen here.

........

These guys are human, and when at the limit, they are dancing a fine line, and in racing, often times in such situations, the British Army SAS' motto of "he who dares wins" is often true. But as I've said, there's no absolutes in racing, only the odds, and no matter how much the odds may be in your favor, nothing can be taken for granted, as Allan's incidents have shown.

Very good post indeed.

[knowyourenemy]

Originally Posted by isynge

Exactly.

As I seem to keep saying to people, if you think about 2011 the race was won by 13 seconds, and every one of those seconds has to be found somewhere.

If, as a racing driver, you consistently play it conservatively and only overtake where there's no shadow of a doubt it's going to be a lot harder to create that edge.

To my eye this was at the root of McNish's accidents in both years, and also at the heart of what makes him an exciting driver to watch.

completely understand your point, but on an 8 mile ciruit like Le Mans there will be a few more opportunities to make up time, i was just saying that McNish when he came up to the Ferrari seemed to second guess and be hesitant. Surely it would have been wise to pass at another part of the circuit where McNish could have been more decisive and could have made up the time loss elsewhere in the circuit.

[Aysedasi]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing..........

[chernaudi]

It's very easy to make judgements based on hindsight for us, but we weren't in Allan's position. We are very much outsiders with the benefit of hindsight for the majority of us. Most of us aren't race drivers, most of us have never raced at Le Mans, and most of use haven't driven in a LM style race.

As I said, when you try something that works, you're gonna want to use it again, but as with everything, there's not a 100% chance that it will work each and every time.

[Kpy]

Originally Posted by knowyourenemy

Surely it would have been wise to pass at another part of the circuit where McNish could have been more decisive and could have made up the time loss elsewhere in the circuit.

It doesn't work like that does it? At least not unless there's a safety car, and at Le Mans unlike F1 you can lose time and thus position if you're behind a safety car.
If you're racing, once you lose a second or two behind a slower car that's it there's no catching up in another part of the circuit, you're already going as fast as you can.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Kpy

It doesn't work like that does it? At least not unless there's a safety car, and at Le Mans unlike F1 you can lose time and thus position if you're behind a safety car.
If you're racing, once you lose a second or two behind a slower car that's it there's no catching up in another part of the circuit, you're already going as fast as you can.

Well, you can always push harder, but thats when the car starts to break, you put it in the gravel traps, or you hit another car. Like Alan did

Eventhough Le Mans is a 24 hours Sprint race, you still need to pace yourself at the right times and don't take risks that's too big. A quality i think Alan misses.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by CTD

Well, you can always push harder, but thats when the car starts to break, you put it in the gravel traps, or you hit another car. Like Alan did

Eventhough Le Mans is a 24 hours Sprint race, you still need to pace yourself at the right times and don't take risks that's too big. A quality i think Alan misses.

Couldn't agree with you more! If he were my driver, he'd be gone already!

[Kpy]

Originally Posted by vincegail

Couldn't agree with you more! If he were my driver, he'd be gone already!

I didn't realise that you were a team manager.
Which team is it?
Before you ask, yes I have raced in multi-class racing, and I've got the cup to prove it.

[Adam43]

So ner ner an ner nah.

Remember it is just someone's point of view.

[the.cosmic.pope]

If you start sacking drivers who make mistakes then you'll end up with an awful long list of drivers you've booted and not much else. Sack Tom K for the clash in 2008, sack Dindo for turning over the car at Monza, sack Allan for his 2 accidents, sack Gene for his off, sack Fassler for the few offs he's had (everyone seels to ignore those, because the car finished), sack Rocky for his one in 07. A lot of the Audi drivers have had accidents, doesn't mean they should be sacked. It's especially true when you look at everything Allan has achieved with his driving. That Petit Le Mans 2008 victory didn't come from being cautious, did it?

[chernaudi]

Audi's LM win in 2011 didn't come from being cautious either--that went out the window when Rocky got taken out, and it really went by the wayside after sunrise. If you saw how Ben and Andre were throwing that car around, I wouldn't call that cautious, and the big reason that they won was, simply, the were faster, and they had to be to negate the Pug's 1 lap better fuel economy advantage, hence the seemingly insane driving and the quintuple stints that those guys put in.

And need I mention that Fassler got Davidson to outbrake himself at one of the Mulsanne chicanes (ironically Kristensen pulled the same move on Fassler to keep the lead this year)? Not a race winning moment, but it undoubtedly gave the #2 Audi some of those 13 seconds it won by.

The guys in the #1 Audi this year were very aggressive, and Allan and especially Tom were ultra aggressive in the #2. They were racing for the win, Ullrich wasn't enforcing any team orders, and he let them race until the outcome was academic.

If we had Audi let go or demote drivers for making mistakes, most of their drivers would've been sacked by now, even 2 out of the 3 guys who won this year. If I was at Audi and prodding around and not being aggressive, I think that I'd get released long before Allan or any of the drivers named in this thread would, especially with what they've achieved with their driving. The only drivers I know that Audi let go was Primat for being a habitual crasher, and Luhr for not being fast enough, which is also probably a reason why Werner semi-retired (though he's still an Audi factory GT driver) after '09.

Franck Montangy has a much longer rap sheet of mistakes and bonehead errors, but AGR/Andretti Autosport and Peugeot didn't let him go except in cases of force majure (AA for not being able to get him an Indy Car ride, and Peugeot closing their LM program), but it seems that's sort of caught up with him this year, maybe as a result of the actions at LM and PLM that have lead to him being vilified by the motorsports media. Franck's a great driver, don't get me wrong, but he tends to be over aggressive and prone to errors, but AA and Peugeot didn't let him go as far as firing him, but AA granted him a release due to the Indy Car deal not materializing and Peugeot layed him off when their sportcar program went into the trash can. If Franck can hold a job in spite of his issues, we shouldn't automatically throw Allan under the bus for two mistakes that he's partly admitted fault for.

This is racing, and when you're racing, there will be accidents--watch a NASCAR or Grand Am race where hard racing is actively encouraged by the sanctioning body. I do have to admit that Allan and Tom's glory days are probably fading, but it seems that they'll have jobs at Audi for as long as they feel up to the task, and we have to remember that they won Sebring this year when the #1 Audi had it's problems and out-ran the #3 Audi (when Duval wasn't in the car) and had it's accident. Maybe being teamed with a younger driver might do wonders for Allan and Tom.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by vincegail

If he were my driver, he'd be gone already!

Originally Posted by Kpy

I didn't realise that you were a team manager.

Obviously, I am not. That's why I said: 'If he WERE my driver. Thank you very much.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by Kpy

Before you ask, yes I have raced in multi-class racing, and I've got the cup to prove it.

Good for you.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by Adam43

So ner ner an ner nah.

Remember it is just someone's point of view.

Thank you. At least somebody is keeping his sensible hat on.

[Kpy]

Originally Posted by vincegail

Obviously, I am not. That's why I said: 'If he WERE my driver. Thank you very much.

Originally Posted by Adam43

So ner ner an ner nah.

Remember it is just someone's point of view.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are too many folk here criticizing drivers, team managers, designers and the like who have never been involved in motor racing at any level.
That's all.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Wasn't Premat sacked for running a Marathon whilst he was supposed to be recovering?

[chernaudi]

I think that the last straw was the DTM accident in the race before last in '10 and, yes, I don't think that Audi were too happy that he bailed on the DTM finale to run a marathon, but he probably knew that Audi were about to let him go anyways because of the issues he had at LM in '09 and his DTM crashes.

[CTD]

Just to clarify, i dont want Allan sacked. I simply want him in another car than Tom, that he will get a lifted finger and conversation with Dr. Ullrich, so he will learn from these mistakes!

To push at Le Mans is something every driver has done, and also made mistakes because of this. Where i see an error with Allan is that he cannot relax when running in the front. If Allan just kept a sensible pace for the remaining hour of his stint, before handing the car over to Tom, Audi team orders might have saved them a final battle with #1.

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by CTD

Just to clarify, i dont want Allan sacked. I simply want him in another car than Tom, that he will get a lifted finger and conversation with Dr. Ullrich, so he will learn from these mistakes!

If the Danes want to cheer for Tom holding up his 9th trophy, he shouldn't be put in the same car as McNish, that's true.